new thread
i just had a big fight with my girlfriend of over 2 years about my hair. AAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG. It sucks because we have this almost perfect relationship. The ONLY issue we have ever had is my hair. She simply does not like it and perfers short hair. I will not compromise with my hair. She thinks im not taking her feelings into consideration.
Anyways, just venting.
Some of you may say I should not be with her if she doesnt support my hair. The problem with that is that there is so much good about our relationship. I bet most couples have bigger problems than ours!
I really want her to like my hair. Its hard because I have gotten about zero support in my journey to longhair. I just wish the person i love most would be able to support and understand me in this.
Oh well, guess thats just the way it goes,
TIMO
Substitute the word 'girlfriend' with 'wife' and '2' with '23' and you have the same problem that my wife and I had a couple of years ago! I think that a 'dump her' response would be too extreme when some much of your relationship is good. It can be very difficult when a partner changes his/her appearance to one that you find less attractive. I dislike short hair on women - if my wife cut her hair short (which she is perfectly free to do of course) then I would find her less visually/physically attractive and it would take time to get used to. Likewise, my wife doesn't find long hair on men to be attractive - she found me sexier with short hair like when we met. That's how the incredibly subjective 'attractiveness response' is wired-up in her and it maybe your girlfriend is the same.
In a similar vein my wife cannot stand tattoos - she thinks they spoil the appearance of a body and mine in particular. When we met, I didn't have any tattoos and now I'm covered! It just took time to adjust.
If your relationship is sound then she'll get over it in time. If there's 'Control' stuff going on here then I'm not so sure!! (If you hear the sentence 'If you really loved me then you'd cut your hair' then I would get your running shoes on).
Thanks man. Yeah, I guess shes just going to have to get over it. And no, she hasnt pulled the "if you loved me youd cut your hair" thing.
Its nice to hear that youve gone through the same thing and been successful.
Thanks again
Sorry to hear about this. It is a bit of a sticky situation as you are kind of "trapped" in what to do. You don't want to compromise your beautiful long mane over a girl, and vica versa. Are there any long styles she likes? Let her tie you braids, pig tails maybe even a bun even? Most females seem to like to play with my hair. If she really loved you she would be more concerned about who you are on the inside and how much you love eachother than the length of your scalp excreted hair follicies.
Hi Timo,
sorry to hear about this trouble. Like many members and guests of this board, I strongly feel that hair is NOT just an accessory. Rather, it's part of our body, and in a sense, of who we are. If it came to the worst, and she gave you the choice between your hair and her friendship (explicitely or implicitely), in that case, you would have been utterly deceived about the substance and depth of her love for you as a person. Love with strings attached is a contradiction in terms, in a way.
The complaint "You don't show consideration for my feelings" is probably a typical "woman" thing [ladies, please accept my apologies if my remark sounds sexist]. You may find some (but not all) info helpful that you'd find in books like "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" by John Gray, "Why men can't listen and women can't read maps" by Allan and Barbara Pease, and "What women really want" by Laurence Stains and Stefan Bechtel. If "appreciation for her feelings" is what she needs, that can always be adressed in other ways, without regard for hair. Are there other fields where you can demonstrate "consideration for her feelings"?
One other important thing, you'll certainly be a better lover in the long run, if you stick to who you really are, and if you feel comfortable about yourself. Besides, you couldn't even save a relationship in the long run by cutting off your hair, since the next relationship issues would already be lurking just around the corner!
To summarize, you can probably find non-hair-related ways to make her happy, or even experiment with pony tails, or buns, etc. - However, don't start experimenting with anything that involves some cutting, not even in your mind!
Finally, we all need to to spend time with regular friends who appreciate us including our chosen appearance, hair style, and all. - I do remember your pictures, by the way, you look perfect with long hair - it underscores the great person (and probably great lover) you are!
Hans-Uwe
So why does she think HER feelings should be paramount in a matter so personal - would she change hersfor you?Surely a relationship is about mutual understanding of thse things most dear to each - appearance being entirely reserved to the person
You can take her feelings into consideration without having to do everything she says. Some people seem to think their feelings are more important than others. Keep the hair dude!
Have you told her what you just told us?
That's why I kinda avoid girls... they get all upset because their feeling is more important than anything. It is almost like girls can live without us and we have to worship them or something.
Of course, they couldn't... most women (in Western culture) these days can't even cook, sew, clean, etc. I know more men then women, including myself, who can perform these tasks... Some examples of the way our society is "switching roles" (taken from wikipedia online):
Discrimination:
* the government and feminist groups believing or teaching that anti-male discrimination is acceptable.
* legislation biased against men (such as WIC and VAWA), using the word women in the law title.
* biases in the justice system against men (i.e. - longer incarceration rates compared with women, for the same crimes).
* earlier age of autonomy for women than men in some countries (In some U.S. states women may legally move out of their parent's home at 17, but men have to wait to be 18. Likewise women may marry at younger ages than men in some U.S. states.)
* men fired from their jobs for dissenting with feminist ideology in the workplace
* research and free speech repressed unless pro-feminist
Social Concerns
* lack of advocacy for men's rights; more social programs for women than for men
* special government agencies for women's affairs with no corresponding agencies for men's affairs
* culture that conditions males to feel bad about being male
* men being incarcerated for the inability to pay unrealistic child support payments
* men less likely to receive aid from strangers if in trouble (broken down car, harassed, attacked by an animal, etc.)
* women treated more respectfully than men in public
-Ardroth
I couldn't but agree more with your statements.
All sadly true, and we can even add a few, starting with men having fewer rights to control their own physical appearance, including hair and clothing.
Thats why I rather be with another man because women just wants to control you. I hate it when people do that... I wish someone would just b*slap those control freaks or something. Especially short haired females, they just want to be like Hitler, like "it's my way or the highway" kind of thinking.
God intended man to be dominant over women, but now it's all upside down...
Okay, guys, the male-fest has gone overboard. The generalizations in this thread about women, feminists and god are over the edge.
Look. I am 46, and I consider myself a "feminist" in the best sense of the word. What would that be? It means recognizing that in western culture (which has been referenced) women have suffered at the exploitation and domination of men for a long time. Feminist movements brought that to light, and opened the doors so that my wife and daughters (and all other women) have choices that their mothers and grandmothers did not. My daughters can choose any role in society that they want, just like my son can.
Being a "feminist" also means that I recognize that feminitiy and masculinity BOTH belong to me just like they both belong to women. I can cook, clean, sew, nurture and cry--when I need to, in my own way. The way I do those things often look different from the way my wife does them, but they belong to me, too. I just spent the last 3 hours cleaning our kitchen and living room because it's been a long week, we've been messy, and my wife has class tonight working on her PhD. It needed to be done. I was here to do it.
Our mutual agreement when we got married 24 years ago was this: there are NO roles that belong to either of us exclusively. Whoever gets there first does the work.
Frankly, I'd think that men who want to break with recent cultural practices and grow their hair long would underestand these things better. I realize that many of you are younger than I. Perhaps it's time to get another ancient tradition out and dust it off--mentoring. Find a wise man who is a little further along the path than we are, and see what it is he has figured out about the rhythms of life.
There are a few of these wise men here. I listen when they speak. I gain a perspective that I haven't learned yet in my 46 years. Doesn't mean I always like what they say, but I recognize the wisdom when they say it.
As for god making men dominant over women--that was not some god who did that. It was frightened little men.
Got a woman in your life who has hurt you? Most of us do. For many of us, her name was mom. She was doing the best she could, under the circumstances. This is deep stuff we've wandered into, and I think it bears some reflection before we say more things that are just really painful.
Robert
I'm on both sides really. I think it's great that women are liberated so much and aren't bound to traditional roles.
On the other hand I can't see why a woman is allowed to have earrings and piercings and whatever while I can't, simply because I'm a man.
They can also wear skirts or shorts, I have to wear long pants always (yes, even in summer) Also because I'm a man.
This is just my place of work, but I'm sure it's the same for a lot of other people.
Mesmerized,
But that's it, exactly. Men are "not allowed" to do these things for the same reasons that women were not allowed to do other things. A split that pervades western culture. Seeing the "other" as "different". Placing everyone in catagories that do not allow for a common experience. Women't liberation ought to also mean men's liberation. The movement hasn't moved that far yet, but unfortunately, men who never saw the connection read it as a new oppression.
We still have a long way to go.
Robert
Whoa, This discussion is going far out of context of the original poster.
First of all, let me tell everybody this. Where will you and me be without women. We wouldnt even exist.
We need a woman to bring us into this world. Women to play with. Women for our pleasure. Women to give birth to our kids. to take care of us. to raise our kids, our grandkids. for our last days.
Obviously we cant lead a life without women. So stop demoralizing women. Tai Fu, i can understand ur pain. I also have a sister who just annoys me. But by the end of the day, i love her more than anything else. Why? because she is my sister and i know that no matter how annoying she is, she does that because she loves me.
Probably this is wrong in your case. But you can never generalize dude. I have seen worse men.
I dont mean to preach here. But please before complaining and demoralizing someone, take some time and think about it. women give us pain. but not less than men do to women. remember without pain there is no gain. What is life without ups and downs. Boring eh? exactly. its all part of the game. Iam sorry if i had been preachy. Just wanted to spill it out.
And for the original poster, dont listen to all those posters who say, she doesnt understand you because she doesnt like your hair.
best thing to do is "TALK TO HER". Try to make her understand that you really like being a long hair and ask her for some space on this matter. If she doesnt understand, if she insists, and if you really think if she means a lot, if you really know that she loves you as much as you do, cut it off (Its really hard for me to say this, especially in this board as a budding long hair).
Sometimes life is not all about taking, its also about giving. When it comes to love and hair. I would always choose love. If you cut your hair today, it will be grow back in a year or so. But if you lose your love, you will regret that all your life.
So good luck. I hope to hear from you with some good news.
ps: All said and done, try not to cut your hair. (Iam so jealous)
Cheers!
I can see that line of argument, but there are problems with doing that. If you do something because someone forces you to (that includes emotional blackmail, in fact especially that) then you will resnt them for forcing you to do it. It may seem like an answer, but in fact it would damage their relationship.
The right approach to these kinds of problems is to weigh the relative importance to each person. IOW, he should cut off his hair only if him having short hair is more important to her than him having long hair is important to him. As it is attached to his head and not hers, this is unlikely to be the case, but if it is, then, and only then, he should do it. What's more, this is something that he should explain to her.
point taken. i was just trying to insist that if they were both love madly, hair is just a miniscule thing to worry about. Thanks :)
Cheers!
First of all, this may be true, and for the most part fairly superficial and not really having much relation to the argument as a whole i think. I don't see where anyone "demonized" or "demoralized" women (other then tai-fu's partial bashings of his sister). WE take care of women as far as I see it... women could never survive on their own, however men could. Men can raise kids, and most of the time they do, because women believe they need to work because they deserve "equal rights". Thanks to a woman she DID bring me into this world! Not exactly my choice... who would consciously WANT to be brought up in this world? I personally don't have the heart to do that to a child of my own, thus a child I'll never have, and because women don't see things this way (they see it only for themselves... a selfish viewpoint), then a wife I'll probably never have either! oh well...
-Ardroth
Thanks. I can see your point. Just wanted to let my opinions known.
Cheers!
I dont mean to demonize women or something, I have an older sister who is very controlling and I can't just shake her off. I wish I could just disappear because I am quite tired of her intimidation and control. Why do I have to ask anyone's permission before I spend some money or take out a loan? I know "it's for your own good" but that's like the government protecting the people from themselves by outlawing cars or something.
I wish it was just a girlfriend because I can just dump her but I can't dump my sister. I really wanted to change the cell phone number, email address, and possibly move just so she can't find me but I bet she could go to some agencies and get them to find me.
That's it, Tai Fu. YOu have a woman in your life who causes you pain. As I said, most of us do, but they are themeselve acting out of pain.
Where does the cycle of pain stop? It can stop with me. I can choose to act differently. To be in the present moment. To begin to honor myself whether others do or not. When I begin to do that, then, I have something with which to honor others.
It really is powerful--just as powerful as passing on pain.
Robert
I wish I could just disappear because I am quite tired of her intimidation and control. Why do I have to ask anyone's permission before I spend some money or take out a loan? I know "it's for your own good" but that's like the government protecting the people from themselves by outlawing cars or something.
my sympathies man but........
this still doesent explain some of your prejudgemental remarks
What I find funny about that post, is that you assume (just like a women) that we don't like women because we have been "hurt by one" and now we "hate all"... this is not the case. It's basically that I believe women have slowly lost what it means to be a woman. Even men today are becoming more like women (Ie: metrosexuals... seriously). Women aren't supposed to work when they have a baby,they are supposed to RAISE that child... not throw it in some daycare. That's just one example of that my friend... I really don't think I'm "too young" to make this observation. No "wise man" will suddenly change my personal feelings. I'm a masculist, and I must say I'm not ashamed of it at all... and I shouldn't be, just like a Feminist isn't ashamed to be a feminist. It doesn't mean I "hate" women. Of course... too a feminist it DOES.
-Ardroth
some goverernments allow paid leave for pregnant women as law
for all organiseations.
i can see this becomeing a problem for single parents (especially if theve been ditched by there man)
You're correct... in like Germany... and probably a few other European countries. But not in the USA, and if that's where I live, then that's where I'm going to form my opinions off of.
-Ardroth
I think you can have that in most European countries. I know of none where you can't.
Not arguing your point, just stating.
Yeah, since I don't live in Europe I can't speak for it... but thanks for clearing that up.
-Ardroth
Hey Ardroth
I think your point is perfectly fine Provided youre partner agrees also!!!
We have it here in Aus too
I think with the too young comment there is an understanding that people tend to think differently as they age. The world can become less black and white. While it may seem reasonable to you now to be a man proclaiming women aren't being women right to your way of thinking you may not always feel this way. I can't help but appreciate that this site is full of men who do not settle for being the shorthaired man in the way others expect them to be. I'd like to think individual women can do the same in knowing what is right for them.
Men are not becoming more like women and women are not less female when everybody is simply being themselves. For example, I'm not about to blame a father who does't want to stay home and raise his child, he should have that option to put the kid in day care.
Elizabeth
I agree with you, Elizabeth. My only point was just that women seem to be able to malign men in general, whereas quite rightly that isn't tolerated the other way around. What's source for the goose should be sauce for the gander, and that's a very, very old expression!
Alun
Dear Alun, women get away with maligning men when people don't speak up to challenge them. I make sure I do since from what I see women do each other in as much as anybody else these days, not that anybody in the 'men are evil' camp does much listening but I do not let that kind of comment slide. I wasn't thinking of your post at all since my concern is the 'woman's place' mindset expressed by Ardroth. I think you and I have similar views on what women can be and it is not defined by what boundaries a man would set for them.
I agree with you that fair treatment means recognition there are slights to all people. It is only just that when a person trots out a long list of perceived abuses they need to listen when others say it happens to them too. If men were not put upon in ways women are not this site would have a lot fewer posts since the support is not just hair care but dealing with all the social rubbish that can go along with it. When men get judged for the fitness of a job based on what is on their head rather than in it men certainly have basis for saying they don't have it easy either.
Argumentative with all, including the ninnies tham claim men don't have gender based challenges,
Elizabeth
Firstly, I'm older than you Robert! Although what age has to do with it I don't know!
Secondly, although most of what you say is right, we are indeed at the point where the backlash against males has gone too far. If you can't see that, then fine. We are at a point where it is not allowed for men to say derogatory things about women, but women say derogatory things about men with impunity. Personally, I don't think that can go on for much longer.
Paradoxically, although women still don't have equal pay, neither do men enjoy equal parental rights, for example (maybe in theory, but certainly not in practice). No, that doesn't affect me personally, it's the first thing that came to mind.
As for the whole psychological angle, that's just a non sequitur, i.e. it doesn't go to the merits of the argument.
If you are old enough, and you grew up in the US, you remember when the only language we used was "the doctor--he, the judge--he, the lawyer--he, the plumber--he, the mailman, the policeman, the fireman, the teacher--she, the nurse--she, etc.
It's like the civil rights movement in many ways. Young African-Americans don't remember what their parents annd grandparents faced. There is a history that goes with the story.
You are right, and in a feminist perspective (I did qualify it by saying "in the best sense of the word") these are examples of the work still to be done. Feminism is no good if all it succeeds in doing is getting men and women to swap places in the power differential. It succeeds if it allows all human beings to enjoy their inherent rights.
Well, it does, but if there is no connection there for you, then it's a non-issue for our discussion.
Robert
I didn't grow up in the US. I am from England, and came to the US aged 31 (I'm now 48). Most of those occupations I can never remember being entirely single sex, with I think two exceptions. I do remember the first female firefighters perhaps about twenty years ago, and I have yet to encounter a female plumber even now.
The idea of teachers being all female is actually a very odd one from my perspective, as we ever had that situation in the UK.
It may possibly be that sex discrimination was at one time much worse in the US than in the UK. I remember seeing an American movie made in the '50s that mentionned female college graduates having to start work in the typing pool. It's hard for me to even beleive that it was based on real life atall, as that could never have happened in the UK. In fact, I suppose I have to even ask you if it was real?
Two examples that I think do confirm the reality of the movie. I had a chemistry teacher in high school, 1977. She was brilliant. She was in her 60's. When she changed her college major to chemistry from music (parents had sent her there to become a music teacher) her father disowned her. The only "break" she got as a college graduate in chemistry was that WWII was on and women were allowed to work where otherwise they would not be.
My own mother, very inclined toward academic work, was only encouraged to go to "business school" in 1959 when she graduated from high school. Tht meant, learn to become a secretary. My father who was not academically inclined but quite the athelete, was given a football scholarship to a very prominant University. He dropped out to play professional baseball. Never went back.
The amount of change in gender issues in this country has been phenomenal over the past 3 decades. Just long enough for younger people not to remember.
Robert
You forgot to mention that in the U.S., FGM is illegal, but MGM is perfectly legal.
I have no idea what either of those stand for.
FGM = Female Genital Mutilation
MGM = Male Genital Mutilation (Circumcision)
-Ardroth
You can't really compare these two.
Male circumcision, as it's practiced in western countries, and clitoridotomy (excision or removal of a female's clitoral foreskin) are, all-in-all, very similar procedures. Obviously, one can't directly compare other, more severe forms of female genital cutting to male circumcision, yet more severe forms of male genital cutting exist as well.
I take great offence at this terminology.
Just know that if you continue to ue it, you are 'slapping in the face'/verbally insulting millions of people (of the Jewish faith) as well as other millions of men who for one reason or another, have made a PERSONAL decision to have a circumcision, usually as adults-Highly UNLIKE FGM.
Hey dude, he didnt coin the term, he simply pointed out what they mean...
And I care because....???? Yeah... too bad for you.
-ArdRoth
My original message to you only stands if you are an activist against circumcision, claiming ALL circumcisions to be 'Male Genital Mutilation'.
However as I highly doubt that this is the case, I must apologise to you!
In my anger I misconstrued (as BlackMetal666 pointed out) your 'explantion' post (To Mesmerized) as a personal opinion on the matter.
(And therefore of course you don't care about the matter!)
My anger was thus misdirected and I lashed out. I am really sorry for that man.
I apologise.
Anyway I have posted my response to Bragi as I originally should have, and I think the two of us have perhaps both gained new insights on this topic (although I still reject MGM as an 'umbrella' term).
So yeah...again, I'm sorry, and by the way I dig your new facial hair/lack of it. Although as previously mentioned, your moustache kicked ass in my opinion.
Looking at your hair, its looking great too (seems a bit lighter in colour as well).
Ardroth, my thought would be that as a moderator part of your work is to care when people express concerns.
Elizabeth
Not all the moderators have to be homogenized. I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant as well. I personally a) don't care that I offended Dean (or anybody), and b) I was simply stating the full meanings of the acronyms presented, and therefore I shouldn't have to worry about if someone gets "offended" by meanings of acronyms... "walking on eggshells" is not something I care to do.
-Ardroth
Ardroth, I agree it would be bland if all the opinions here were the same. It was not a circumcision stance that was out of place but your surprising response to Dean's complaint. When I wrote in you gave me a thought out response and I was startled he had not gotten the same level of attention more typical of your writing here.
"I did not mean to offend" and "you're offended and I don't care" are two very different things. Explaining as you did to me, "I was simply stating the full meanings of the acronyms presented" and leaving it at that was all you needed to give a very different impression than you did originally. This is especially important when you are representing not only yourself but the site.
The attitude "I don't care" is not in keeping with the theme of the hyperboard at all. When you are a moderator, caring is part of the job you have taken on and from what I read that is not inconsistent with your personality.
Elizabeth
I guess I don't see what's surprising about keeping it simple... I was generally reacting to Dean's "NO! I am OFFENDED!"... and to that i say "so... what?". Although he apologized later, which he probably also didn't need to do...
This is such a small matter, I don't understand why so much effort is being put into it. I'm pretty sure I "care" more then most people on this board. I'm sorry if I can be "rude" every so often... that's usually people's reaction to bluntness. Blunt is pretty much how I am in person... I understand what you're saying, but it's just not that big of a deal to me. Other then that, I do what I need as a general moderator, no more and no less, and so far no one has had a problem with it.
-Ardroth
No, the job of moderators is to fairly enforce the rules. When a moderator posts on his own behalf, he is free to be himself. He may care very much about some issues and very little about others. That is his choice.
"Caring" is an opportunity made available to all users equally. It is not in the least bit reserved for moderators.
Bill
Note to Moderators: Delete this if you will, but please know that this subject is just my 'Achilles heel'. Inasmuch as it is related to hair, well, the connection is obvious. We always talk about freedom from convention and freedom to do what we choose as men, be that growing hair, wearing an earring or two or three, or maybe even having our genitals intact. It all seems to fall along the same thread of thought. This is a hair-board, but as men who may one day have sons, enough people cannot be aware of all the facts related to something so important.
Usually, if you're born in the US, when you are ONE DAY OLD, you're taken away and strapped down and your foreskin is forcibly cut and removed usually without anethesia. This is the practice of the Gentile of course.
That is not a PERSONAL DECISION on the part of the newborn in any way, shape, or form!
Does not the lifetime occupant of a corporeal body have any right to be completely as the were born? Of course, all other things being equal. The presence of a foreskin in NOT a life threatening situation that needs to be immediately taken care of soon after birth.
A forcible haircut to a small boy is one thing. The hair grows back. A forcible circumcision is another, more horrid thing altogether. It's not ever going to grow back.
You must also be aware that the Jewish circumcision ritual practiced today at eight days of age is NOT the circumcision ritual from the Old Testament.
The Old Testament ritual was simply a small cutting and the letting of a few drops of blood. There is evidence to back this up.
The practice that continues to be done today of the radical removal of the foreskin came about later when Jewish men competing in Greek games tied their remaining foreskins to mimic the 'acroposthions' of the Greek men. Complete removal was instituted to prevent the Jewish men from being able to do this. To the Greeks, no foreskin covering was very undesirable and frowned upon. And too, I'm sure this was only one factor in the evolution of today's ritual.
There are Jews today who do not practice the circumcision ritual and are Jews nonetheless.
If the God of the Jews did not want men to have a protective covering (the foreskin), why does every male child born have one?
Dean of 3:16, please don't take offense. It is not an insult to you or anyone else. It is simply time for all men to know that some things we do and accept as fact is not always the command of God, but a inventions & machinations of the minds of men. I am not Jewish. I don't pretend to be an authority on such matters. But, I do know that there are Jews who do question and do not take part in the circumcision ritual.
I respect your beliefs, Dean of 3:16, but if even only one little boy or grown man suffers as a result of circumcision, be it mentally or physical or both, is it fair to make any one suffer or be harmed by ANY religion? The God I believe in is a god of LOVE. Love and nothing but it. Suffering and pain are always administered by the hands of men.
On rituals, traditions and other such things: If you do something and have no idea why you really do it or what the purpose is, is it not logical that one should inquire into the nature of things and weigh and consider the validity of such practices?
Dean, please don't take offence at all this. Use it as a tool or key. The key to that dark place in the back of your mind. That place that made you so angry when you read this post. Look there and see that. Make it light there. Let that anger out. I'm letting my anger out too. I'm angry because I was one of those little American boys who had his foreskin cut off when he was a day old. I didn't want it. I didn't know. I couldn't do a thing in the world to stop it from happening. But it happened, and it is that which it is.
Just because a thing was done to a man, does not mean that same thing need be done to the next man. The oppressed need not always become the oppressor.
If this message makes it, thanks to whomever it is on the moderation staff for letting me have my say. I thank also whoever happens to read it.
bragi
Bragi,
I must say that I highly respect your considered and thoughtful views on this matter.
I'm also very sorry that you were subject to a practice that I didn't even know existed. If America does have a policy in any state/s whereby the foreskin must be removed at 1 day of age, then this does fall under the umbrella of 'mutilation'.
Yet is this realy the case? What if parents don't want their child to undergo circumcision?-surely their wishes aren't disregarded? Is it simply a case of the parents having to explicitly tell their doctor/hospital that they don't want the procedure performed beforehand?
I'm going to find out more about this, because I think it is despicable if it is the case.
As to the religion thing. This is a 'hair' board after all-yet hair is part of my identity as well as my faith, and as discussions of hair/identity/religion have occured on this board before, I hope the moderators will allow me a brief response here to you.
The information you brought up in regards to the Jewish practice is news to me. I'm not sure what sources you have about it, or whether your information is accurate or not. Remember or realise that Jews live by the oral law-Talmud etc.-as well as the Written or given law-The Torah/Old Testament.
Yet this is not the place for such a discussion/debate.
Suffice to say that in Judaism TODAY, my (future) child would NOT be recognised as a Jew by any Jewish authority except by Reform Judaism, if not circumcised.
Reform Judaism while having a substantial following in America, is a minority (albeit in the tiny Jewish population of 15 million) In Judaism. (Personally I don't agree with their view on Judaism most importantly)
My son one day, if not circumcised could only marry a Reform Jew. His children would not be considered Jewish by most Jewish authorities, and neither would he of course.
Even assuming that your information on the circumcision process is accurate, I would never allow this to happen to my son.
I will raise him up in a Jewish home and give him a Jewish education. Yet when he is grown up, he will have to make his own religious choices, much as they may pain me. If he does decide for example to marry outside our faith, and have Christian children, well, I would be devestated...yet I would accept it. It must be his choice.
Yet I will not 'disqualify' him from the beginning of the process. I will not have a situation where he is raised to be a proud Jew aware of his religion and heritage, only for him to undergo a circumcision as an adult, to be counted as one. A process that would probably be more psychologically painful (and certainly remembered!) as an adult.
Once again I'm sorry that you were circumcised for no reason other than because of some US mandate (?). I really am.
I just hope you can recognise that I am proudly Jewish and intend for my son/s to be Jews as well (at least until they decise to choose otherwise, if that turns out to be the case), and that I don't consider circumcision in THESE circumstances to be 'mutilation' at all.
I have the highest respect for your Jewish faith and all other faiths for that matter. Faith is a very touchy subject, and I was reluctant to even mention all this. The only problem I have with all of it is when people are diminished and hurt in the name of religion by people who've lost their way instead of being made better by it through God, Ganesh, Odin, or whoever it is you worship. Like I said I don't know much about Judaism other than the fact that Jesus was one, and that I've never understood all the details of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
In the US, newborn circumcision is a very embedded custom in the medical establishment and among many of Americans. It is even encouraged by medical doctors. I know this for a fact: Both my sister and brother in law are pediatric physicians, and they endorse and had their own son circumcised. It is not mandated by any law in the US nor is it restricted. Parents do however have the option not to have it done. It can be done with the consent of only one parent. In certain parts of the US it is actually beginning to be less prevalent, and yet persists in others. Generally, this is just something the average person does not want to think about, but enough thinking can't be done about it.
As far as the accuracy of the information on the development of the Jewish circumcision ritual, you are right. I read that information in a book or on the web, but there is no way I can know if it is accurate.
Please do the investigation into circumcision for your own enrichment if for nothing else a greater understanding of your Jewish faith. There are lots of books and web information out there. You will no doubt either be in shock, sick to your stomach, or mad as heck by the end of it all.
Customs and traditions and rituals all start somehow, somewhere. And someday they finally stop. At some point there was one or more who began a thing. One can begin to stop a thing too. Animal sacrifices used to be the going way to honor God. They aren't required anymore. Customs and rituals can indeed change their forms over time. A blood letting custom of obedience & worship need not always let blood. The custom is not diminished. God looks at the heart of a person, not for marks in the flesh. Could you be the one who changes a custom? It only takes one.
Call me crazy if you will or even be mad at me, but I can arrive at no other place in my mind with what I've learned.
I reiterate that I respect your beliefs, but yet as my beliefs on this matter are not the province of any religion per se, they are no less valid, and foment nothing else than the sanctity of a new born baby and his right to be intact and secure in his own body.
I had a boss who was a reform jew, as Dean put it. He married a Catholic, so probably orthodox jews wouldn't have accepted them as jews (?). Rest assured, everyone else beleives he is a jew! Anyway, you must make your own decisions, I am an atheist myself.
Routine cicumcision in the US is a strange idea. There's no reason for it, but we did have to make a definite point of asking that it shouldn't be done to our son. Ironically, even though I am neither an American nor a jew, I am circumcised myself. This was done as a child, not as an infant, for genuine medical reasons.
One thing that many states do have a law about is putting drops in the eyes of newborns. Imagine, you get your first glimpse of the outside world and then they put drops in your eyes so you can't see. OK, I know that the vision isn't fully developped, but even so it seems barbaric. Apparently it's a measure to protect the child against STDs in the mother. So, effectively they are telling every respectable mother that she has STDs!
Ah, a fellow atheist! I learned some nasty stuff about infant cirumcision recently. I won't reveal it here. Be warned people, especially if you're circumcised yourself, before looking for facts. You can reverse the process, interestingly.
I won't take my foreskin for granted again!
When the consequences include completely preventable blindness you don't want to rely on the not always informed word of the mother who may have a STD she is unaware of or unwilling to admit to a 'dose every newborn' law makes sense. Just as manditory car insurance is not an assumption you are a bad driver, the drops say every baby is worth protecting. Besides, 'respectable' people do get STDs.
Birth is traumatic enough that the eyedrops probably go unnoticed compared to the head squeeze of moments earlier among other stressors. Back to circumcision though, I understand that is done without anesthetic and the assumption that a baby will not remember the pain is no excuse. That was disheartening to read you had to make your wishes very clear as the assumed default is surgery.
Elizabeth
You basically say that you are forced by cultural pressure to conform to this practice or to be rejected from the community.
I may agree if it was something "to do" (as proving your worth by some symbological deed), but it's something to "be done on you" which in my opinion proves nothing, despite religious/cultural customs. Add to this that it would not even be seen, it's not visible, it has to be known by telling about it or forcibly searched to be found.
I am legally (recognized by state/by default) considered Christian, yet I do not consider myself so or of membership in any religion. I adhere to some principles of the originally founded doctrine as in about compassion and considering others as equals, despite their faults or shortcomings in any or all areas, but I don't go to church and the pressure to be or not a member of a religious community is about unexistent here (since the 1970s).
I will not "reject" someone based on following or not a tradition, either literally or culturally and I can't understand why others would. We are free to make our own choices in life, and should not force others by coercion to "fit a mold" and be invisible.
The government being very good at doing that though...
Bragi,
This is good information and thoughtfully presented.
It occurred to me that outside the US, men may not know how pervasive routine, medical circumcision is. It is so much a part of the culture that despite all good research indicating that circumicison is NOT medically recommended, most parents and most doctors continue to practice on newborn baby boys. And you are right, it is done the day after they are born.
Do parents have a choice? Technically, yes, but with such pervasive cultural pressure, the choice is not really a choice. I was circumcised under such conditions, and so was my son. Looking back, I would do things differently, but at the time, I did not have sufficient clarity to choose otherwise.
Robert
forgive me if its already been addressed....but what difference does it make being cirumsised or not. i understand its for hygene reasons because little cousins parents had the coice not to get him circumsised and they chose not to but when he was about 6 he got a severe infevtion the symptoms includeing a swelling extreme pain urinateing and a foreskin that was filled with pus, this condition even with various antibiotics ect tooks wheeks of pain to fix...he was young so he cant really be blamed but wouldent it be worth it to circumsize just in case such a problem arises? unless not causes some sort of phycological problems or something? what im trying to ask is what are the reasons agaiinst circumcision
Where I'm from circumsizion is not tradition, but we don't get those kind of things either (I guess some do, like everywhere, but it's not something that happens for lack of circumcision).
I'd say it wasn't worth it for that reason alone.
Kinda like pulling out all the teeth to prevent holes.
Same here, not performed unless asked for here, rarely ever has a problem that I heard about from others.
but why not do it? is there some use for the foreskin that im unaware of!!!! or is it because its regarded as cruel and painful and so not worth doing just in case?
just trying to get some info without takeing sides!!!!
^^^^^^
i looked on the internet and found this fairly unbiased site that discusses the rewsults of a survey
http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/ WARNING!!!! you may find this site a little offensive as it deals with sex
but after reading it id have to say im against circumscision so far. in terms of what it discusses....(too bad caus im circumsised)
if of course its a matter of religion and the individual agrees with circumscision than sex really shouldent come before spiritual belief (if thats your priority of course)
but that raises the issue of whether someone who chooses not to be circumsised should be alienated from others who practise that religion.......i wonder if a similar debate is what seperated catholics and protestant way back when?
From my perspective I'd need a really GOOD reason to do something like that. I don't do things like that just because 'I might as well'.
I don't know about it being cruel or painful (never heard anything to that effect), but just because something isn't cruel doesn't mean you have to do it.
hey u should look at my other post that i did after this.......im kinda agianst it now....besides with my cousin it doesent seem that theres been any other cases
ill go with u on this one mez!!!
When it's done to babies, it's very cruel indeed. The baby is strapped down by the wrists and ankles...(I'll leave out some gory details) but they usually don't even use anaesthetic! And many people die each year from the operation.
It's believed that the baby remembers the pain because circumcised babies tend to resist needles more than uncircumcised ones when they are being immunised.
Some mentioned a 6 year old with an infection in the penis. I reckon that's a highly unusual case because the foreskin is fused to the end of the penis until about the age of 10 (it's not possible to retract the foreskin until this age).
hey it happened!!!! i saw it and it wasnt pretty!!! (possibly just around the "edges")
however i think the fact that its fused is another reason not to get your kids circumsized!!!
When I was pregnant and found out it was going to be a boy, I did a lot of research on the pros and cons of circumcision. Honestly, aside from religious reasons (but we are not Jewish), the strongest reason that circs are still being done is becuase it is the 'cultural norm' in the US.
Pros:
- Boy will look 'normal' compared to other circ'd boys.
- Boy will look the 'same' as his circ'd father.
- Idea that the penis will be 'cleaner'.
- Theory that this reduces the risk of penile cancer (not proven).
Cons:
- Painful procedure that is non-consentual to the individual.
- Risk of cutting too much, which can make for painful erections in the future.
- Risk of penile adhesions forming as the foreskin tries to grow back. These are often cut over and over again, sometimes over the course of years.
- Risk of infection.
- Desensitation of the glans over the years as it is exposed to clothing rubbing on it.
To me, the cons greatly outweigh the pros. By teaching proper personal hygiene to the child, there will be no 'cleanliness' issues, and the foreskin does stay adhered to the glans for many years after birth anyway. If this procedure was not so utterly ground into US culture, just a quick glance at the cons would surely make me wonder why this practice is done at all.
I was very opposed to the idea of circumcising my son, however, my husband wanted it done because he was circumcised as well. I finally agreed to the procedure, giving the dad's say a little more weight since it was concerning a boy (and I don't have those parts).
As for the procedure itself, it was done the day after my son's birth. The pediatrician who came to speak to me about the procedure was opposed to it as well, saying that there is no medical need for it. I agreed, but said we were to do it anyway (I felt like a fool). They let me be there with him while it was done, which I insisted upon- usually parents are not allowed to be present. I nursed and held him, and he did get a local anesthetic (which seemed to be the most painful part). They had to pry the foreskin from the glans, applied a circular clamp, then cut around that. It went very quickly, I was trying to nurse him through the entire procedure (studies have shown that the pain response is dramatically reduced when an infant nurses).
Thankfully, my son hasn't had any complications from the procedure and everything healed nicely with some give in the cut. I'm still not pleased that he had to go through this at all, and despite him having seemigly little trauma from the procedure I would much rather have all his body parts still intact.
I hope this helps some of you understand what goes on with a circumcision a little better.
I always thought that "true love" accepts the other person just the way they are.
These posts are more frequent then you might think... it seems rather "high-schoolish" to comment on a something like your hair on her part. You know in high-school how literally everything revolves around image, and everyone critiques what everyone else is wearing/doing. You guys have been together for 2 years, and all she can worry about is your long hair? How self-centered is that? It seems that she's not worried about you so much as she's worried about the reactions SHE'LL get (even though those "reactions" are surely minimal). I'm sure something can be worked out... it just seems like such a trivial problem that shouldn't even happen at both of your ages...
You have great hair though man... don't let her discourage you. Good luck.
-Ardroth
Good thought indeed, Ardroth!
I call that "meta-discrimination". Some bosses are worried about what others think of the company, if their male employees have long hair. They say "I personally don't mind long hair, but we can't afford that with our image in the public."
Greetings!
Hans-Uwe
I have experienced the same thing with women. A couple of them had told me: "I won't date you with long hair." I dumped them!
It amazing that women want men to start living in the 21st century. And when men put up glass ceilings to prevent women from advancing upward, they take men to court and they win! But what happens when women put up glass ceilings for men and boys, and not allow men and boys to have long hair? I'd like to take them to court. I know how the courts will rule though; in her favor. And women don't want men to control them and parts of their body. But it's alright for women to control men and parts of their body? Where is this street of equality at I heard mentioned in the 1970's when I was a teenager? Aren't both sexes equal? Are there supposed to be no differences between the sexes? And the most recent statement from that hypocritical movement from the 1970's: I don't care to follow TRADITION!!
Then why do men and boys? Why don't women start living in the 21st century like they want men! Enough! Thanks for letting me rant!!
Hi
TIMO
My misses dont like my hair long neither she moans about mine being long every so often but sadly for her the hair is upon my head is mine and I choose how I want to have it NOT any woman its like it or lump it !
Axel
I like to live by this theory that, what is important to me should be important to those that are important to me and vice versa.
Thanks to all you guys for the help. I pretty much agree with most of what you guys have said. Its nice to hear it reaffirmed, so i know im not the only one who feels this way.
Love definately should be about the person on the inside. Our argument is very superficial and I wish I wasnt dating someone who has such a big problem with my long hair.
Thanks to all
Just wondering: Are you and your girlfriend perhaps going through a transition or an advancement in your relationship? If so, your girlfriend may be reacting subconsciously with fear of the unknown and then attempting to control her fear by controlling an aspect of your personality, in this case your hair. It has been done for centuries...the theory that if you want to control a man, you do it through his hair. I was wondering this since you said you have been together two years and now a big fight erupted, the subject being your hair, something she should have gotten used to by now. Of course I don't know your situation, but if the two of you are going through a transition in your relationship, it might explain her behavior.
By the way, your hair is quite beautiful. It would be a shame to give up something so awesome if you didn't want to.
I wont give you the standard stuff a lot of people around here will give to you. I think some people are just way to into their hair around here. To suggest you need to break up with her over that is absurd. IF it came down to she is going to break up with you over it, then I would say maybe she needs to go.
People have preferences and opinions, and we are all entitled to that. Relationships are about a lot of things and comprimise is one of them. IF this is not one that you are willing to make, then I think you really need to have a serisous talk with her and ask her to lay off the the issue as you are not ready to cut it yet. If she really cares about you the hair isnt going to matter in the end. I do feel you though about women saying to cut it. There is not one woman that knew me from when I had short hair that has said you should keep it long. They all say you should cut it, and that I look so much better with short hair. I dont care though, I am going to enjoy it for a while longer. I think maybe I just need a good style for it perhaps.
Its hard though when you have so many of the oppisite sex telling you the same thing. I mean you want to be attractive to them and still keep the hair, but its not working out so far. Rock and hard place.
Anyway, good luck, and think of what I said
well, ask her to read the postings here and see what some guys go through to get some support for growing their hair long...
Dear Louise,
I love you and have great fun with you, but do not understand why you experience so much grief about my hair, when so many other people celebrate it with me. I know it is not because other people think it is unattractive. It is clean, and well managed. It is me. Has someone told you that I look effiminate? Has someone told you that I look queer?
Some of my best friends are effiminate, gay and retarded, but surely you know that I am butch, macho and at least average.
I would very much regret to lose you as a friend, but the fact is that you surely could not ask me to cut off a hand, a foot or my nose, even if they were getting in my wqy in some manner but I wanted to hang on to them. My hair is not getting in the way at all but is helping me to be me, to express who I am. I hope you will be able to joine me on this venture. It has been mmore fun with you, But I can not but complege the adventure.
Your loyal friend, TIMO
Hi Timo,
My wife also HATES my hair. Tell her it's very important for you to have long hair, tell her you feel better as you look, tell her if she loves you she must accept you as you are, tell her you love her, tell her you accept to make OTHERS concessions MORE important IF she also accepts (make an exchange for example)... good luck
Lupulus
This thread got crazy!
Well, the fight seems to have blown over. I did offer to wear my hair up in a bun, which she perfers.
I think she just decided to let the matter drop, possibly after talking to her friend who likes my long hair.
I was kinda hoping for an apology from her, but its all good. I believe she is just going to keep her critisisms to herself. (I reminded her "If you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all")
Last night we went out to dinner then saw the New World. Great movie with some cool looking longhairs in it.
Thankyou guys for your support.
TIMO
