new thread
This is a reply to a question raised by Darshan previously, to which I have replied, but I thought it may also be worth posting separately for comments - particularly regarding the last couple of statements I make.
The question concerned why I was interested in mens long hair fashions and in particular why Darshan had gone for a bob style and what his experience was of the ladies in his life driving him in this direction. My reply follows:
I work in the fashion industry and have a particular interest in androgenous/unisex styles, including hair. This goes for both sexes. However, in the past I have worn my hair both short and long and I regularly wear skirts and dresses as well as slacks/jeans etc. In other words as a woman I think I have more choice and its socially more acceptable to wear different fashions since the goal posts are much wider for women. I am interested in looking at, if you like, the other side of this coin. What styles/accessories can men use or wear and why can't a guy with long hair (which is becoming more acceptable) wear it in any style he wants or use accessoires at least to keep it manageable. I liken this issue to the male fragrance/toiletries area that has boomed within the last 20 years. I really think that in another 20 years attitudes regarding hair will also have relaxed. This will be a potentially big market for fashion industry - think of the extra volume of products that could be sold to guys who were taking more interest in their hair, think of the extra salon time that would be used - the extra people employed and think of the design of perhaps more masculione hair jewelry etc. I am not really involved in the exploitation of any of these products and just have a general interest in the area, but I can see the potential is very large.
However, in order for this change to happen there has to be a relaxation of antipathy from the mass population and also a desire to move to this position from more men. This is why I am interested in experiences such as those of Darshan since it provides clues if you like in what drives both men and women in wanting to see this change and this in turn will give a better idea of how to present such issues to more men in general. Does this make sense or am I rambling?
Any thoughts
Cath
Thoughts.
Based on my reading of the posts on this and other boards the 'market' is there. The question is how to "change" the attitudes in the general public. While I have no interest in exploiting that market either, I am interested in the "attitudes."
It seems to me that there are men out there who would welcome that change. Also, women who would also enjoy or accept.
One problem it seems to me is the ambivalence of many women to this subject. I imagine this ambivalence ranges from concerns about gender identity to fetish (i.e. percieved abnormality) in males who enjoy the kinds of hair activity you are promoting.
I believe that many males would pursue that kind of interest if there was more encouragement from the women (from mothers to spouses) in their lives. Clearly those attitudes start in early life.
What i do not hear a lot of is the motivation (personal not professional) of the women involved with these guys.
Do they just tolerate these eccentricities or do they also get something out of them-- what is that?
Now I've rambled too
Tom
You have made some interesting points Tom. I had always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that it was the men who felt uneasy about talking about this kind of thing because of male peer pressure; I had never really thought that it was perhaps the attitude of women who could play such an influential role. I guess one of the key people in this kind of attutude shift is perhaps hairdressers. For example, why would a stylist wet set a womans hair but never even consider suggesting it to a guy - if the point of the wet set is only to achieve movement or wave in the hair. I am not a hairdresser but I guess there must be a technical reason why a wet set is preferred in some cases. The role of mothers, spouses and girlfriends is also important as you say, although I have found women in general to be quite supportive of guys looking after their hair and trying different things with it and I think that this has also been backed up by other comments made here by Darshan and Barbara and Jayme amongst others.
This could be an interesting thread I hope.
Cath
Clearly "male pressure" is important, but from my own experience and what I'm hearing from other males it's female support or lack of it that seems to make a big differnce. Hairdressers (even the good ones that I have known) are not as attitudinally neutral as I expected. They 'can' have th same prejudices as the rest of society. If those attitudes are communicated openly or subtlely they can be painful and inhibiting force.
When I tried my first curly perm many years ago men either said nothing or were complimentary. The "few" remarks from women made that experience mostly positive. The problem is the very few negative remarks from women weremore difficult. Of course that could be just me.
One other thing I noticed. As a therapist with some years experience, I've never heard men talk in therapy about the kinds of things I hear on the net. Wonder why?
t
Hi Tom,
I just have a question this time based on what you have said. Do you think that the fact that myself and other women like Barbara and others before us attract attention here is because we are female - i.e. do some guys court our opinion more because of that than they would of another guy. For example, if a guy had posted exactly the same styles and pics and used the same discussion/argument that I have in the past would he have got the same response. If not why not - is it because some guys are insecure about not knowing how women feel about long hair on men, or is it because as women we are perceived to know more about hair and such things than men. I am not surprised that guys are perhaps more honest here wth each other than face to face (for example in therapy even) since I think there is much more peer pressure on males than females to conform to certain stereotypical images. Perhaps guys are more concerned about what women think because these are the people that they are trying to impress - i.e. the peacock behaviour.
Oh boy, waffling again - time to go..
Cath
It is a combination of both. When I had long hair before women seemed to like it so I kept it long. The reason the we (me included) like to hear from you is that in fact you are reinforcing our conception that women find men with long hair attractive. The first posts that I look for are yours and Barbaras'and I enjoy reading them the most. Does that help answer your question?
Bill
***************
I agree with all that has been said so far. There are several interconnected issues at work here.
For my own part, I think that some, maybe many, men perhaps seek the opinion or even 'approval' of women when part of their lifestyle encroaches into an area hitherto associated with being 'feminine' - whether this is hairstyles, clothes, outward display of emotions, etc.
This shows how deep the stereotypical 'norm' is entrenched within us, and how difficult it can be to break free of it (look how much discussion there is on this board from time to time about employers attitudes to mens' long hair). I think English Puritan and later on, Victorian, society has a lot to answer for.
My thanks go to Victor and all contributors to this board - I find it an informative and thought-provoking site to visit.
Best wishes from England
Steve D
Speaking only for myself, that would unquestionably make a difference when speaking in person, but I really don't think it makes a bit of difference here. In fact, I generally read posts and formulate a reply in my head before I notice who I'm replying to. That would be quite impossible to do in person.
True. OTOH, there is more peer pressure on females than on males to conform to certain other stereotypical images, and they can even become vicious about it too. Why do you think women's magazines and clothing stores are so successful?
I think there's a lot of truth to this. Ironically, I think it's also true that a lot of women are attracted to exactly the opposite behaviour. I've found this out by accident (heheh).
I cannot speak for other guys-just myself. For me the fact that you at least represent yourself as women (in cyberspace who really knows) is important. The 'why' is a problem. That Women 'seem' to know more than men about these thing, even though many males are 'expert' in hair matters is a kind of mystery. If I talk to another male about my hair (which is rare off the net) it is different than when i talk to women. Insecurity does seem to be an issue here but not in the psychological sense of insecurity. The fact is, men and women are different and those differences seem to always suggest a special kind of uncertainty about how that the other person is responding .I think i know how a male is responding because i am one. I think that there is also a kind of vicarious experience involved in these chats that suggests that when you are talking to me about my hair you are in one sense doing it to me of for me. Hair is only partially appearance and partially about 'grooming' in the anthropological sense. I am not surprised that guys are perhaps more honest here wth each other than face to face (for example in therapy even) since I think there is much more peer pressure on males than females to conform to certain stereotypical images.
My thoughts about this--in therapy you are supposed to talk about anything sex included--but you are not supposed to have fun. It's supposed to be about your problems.Thereapy seems to take the fun out of sex the more we learn to be uninhibited. At least here and other sites the 'fun' aspect of hair remains possible.
tom