new thread
As you all know. I have have had major problems in the past week, with regards to my hair length and my employer.
Hans and Milney have given me great support and legal advice over the past days - thank you guys !
I rang up HR the other day to explain my points of defense.
When i attacked the vague definitions of words like "long hair" and "business like" and their open-ended interpretation and ambiguity, i got refuted. She 'clarified' to me, the corporate meaning of these words. "Long hair" being anything over the collar and "business like" as a short back and sides haircut. She clearly said a ponytail was not accepted.
This was my primary fort of defense crushed.
I then fought back with anti-discrimination and gender standards but this didn't phase her very much and she didn't sound worried that they were breaking the law.
I was going to just leave the company, silently, without any fuss or revenge tactics. I have other things in my life right now which greater prioritise my energies.
Then today, i said no, i'm not gonna be beaten and screwed by some corporate pigs over my hair anymore.
Hans sent me a great site with the extracts of the Anti-discrimination act that are relevant to my situation and there was even a male long hair precedent/example on the website.
As everyone knows, what the company is doing is illegal in my state of NSW under the Anti-discrimination Act 1977.
I done some research and printed off some forms which i was going to send off the complaint with the relevant authorities, that being the "Anti Discrimination Board of NSW". They are a goverment organisation, which act as a 3rd party mediator and conduct greviance procedures for such cases. They attempt to communicate with both parties and come to a resolve and compromise on the issues. If no such resolve is met by either party, the matter is taken to Judiciary courts and the decision is legally binding.
Cut to the chase, finished the briefing, here is the dilemma i am facing...
My mum is very smart and raised some good points that i would have never thought of. Although they sound negative and discouraging it is actually quite realistic.
Firstly, the demand to cut my hair was given orally and not in a hardcopy or written format .ie the manager pulled me aside and told me/spoke to me about it. Therefore, there is no written proof.
Without hardcopy solid proof or some other form of evidence it is virtually impossible to accuse the company of discriminating against me. The company can simply deny any allegations that they told me to cut my hair, for there is nothing in hard, solid evidence. So , although legally i am protected by the law/act, unless i can produce evidence it is all for a futile cause.
So why don't i just get them to fire me or give me a warning you say? that way i can get it written in proof. Ahhh, not that easy, the company clearly know what they are doing is illegal and they are avoiding all forms of written evidence. As my mother said, they would simply offload me and put a general reason of dismissal such as 'incompetence' on my report. Even more subtle, they could reduce my working hours to practically nothing. That way they aren't firing you but just not giving you any shifts, so you leave anyway. Since i am a casual employee, they are under no deemed obligation to provide a set number of hours of work per week. My reference would be pretty much non-existent for this job, seeing that they would go out of their way to give me an 'excellent' reference after all this is said and done. In fact, it is actually illegal for them to punish me for making a complaint to the board, but like most things, they will probably find some way around that too.
On Tuesday I shall give my 2 weeks notice of resignation and hand back over all property of the company that is in my possession. I will get a reference, still staying on good terms/relations with the managers. Even if it likely be a failed attempt, I still believe I will further this complaint and send it off to the President of the AD board. I probably will not get my job back or win the case because of my lack of evidence, but even if it just makes the board aware of these issues and that there should be more tolerance and acceptance of long hair on men in the workplace, then it is better than doing nothing at all.
Although my mum gave me helpful advice and good insight, there was something she said that I didn’t want to hear. She told me that this is how “society works” and that I need to “get with the program” and “cut my hair” or otherwise I will “never find a job and won’t have any money”. Like I need to hear these depressing words right now, when I am trying to cover my ass, keep my hair and my job all at the same time. I told her I can always find work at the local supermarket or grocery store. She then said that she hasen’t seen any long haired guys working there before(which is true) and that they will probably ask me to cut it aswell. Well ,gosh, if I can’t even get a job at the local supermarket or work in a crappy retail job(my current job) then there is no point me studying for a future corporate either. I might as well play out the long haired stereo type, become homeless, do drugs and neglect my appearance. I just don’t see all the fuss of shoulder length hair(not even long) if it is tied back neatly into a ponytail. I am actually starting to go crazy thinking about why this is even an issue as it is so trivial.
Honestly, a few days ago I was so fed up with it. I felt like getting a zero blade and butchering off my hair, just so I blend in with society and look ‘normal’.
I donÂ’t think anyone realises(except you guys) how much I love my hair and how empty and sad I would feel on the inside without it.
Sorry to freak you all out, maybe I am seriously overeacting about this whole thing in my little brain . I just needed to expel some negative thoughts and energies. By writing what I think it gets it off my chest and I can resolve my thoughts. Jean.
Your mother makes a great deal of sense. She is right that as a casual worker you are in a weak position and a clever employer could effectively fire you without actually firing you. This is constructive dismissal and you'd have to prove that this is what happened and why.
You have to ask yourself whether this particular battle is worth it, given that walking away is no big deal for you right now. I have always operated on the principle of choosing the battles I'm prepared to fight. When I do, I'm tenacious and win. If it is unwinnable or the effort is too great when compared to the possible benefits, I walk.
There is some evidence in the written dress code - but how useful it is only a complaint will tell.
Also, sadly, your mother is absolutely right about how society operates.
Yeah, maybe you're right. I should just call it day and move on. I have nothing to loose besides my job and will still have my mane intact.
Jean,
Everything is going to work out. :-) You are just in a crappy position working for a crappy employer. I had some very nasty experiances in my youth. Although these did not involve hair as I had very short hair growing up. I did face a lot of discrimination for being ADHD and extremely nerdy. I was never excepted in school and my first job experience was a nightmare.
Now I am working at a great job doing what I love and I am well excepted and respected by everyone there. As I bonus, I have my hair too. :-) I would focus on college as when done, you will have great success. Plus, you will have recomendations from professors. My professor recomended me for a part time job, since I am good, I wound up being full time with in a year.
Hang in there Jean, things will work out. :-)
ESDI
Hi Jean
I am very sorry that you have had to go through all of this, and learned of the complete frustration in life of laws that read one way, and a large institution that will never be phased by them. I figured the HR would be worthless. It all reads good, but when the chips are down there is really no help as with the NSW. Also, a letter written to the President of the AD board will no doubt yield a polite letter back from a secretary that will pass-the-buck and direct you in another direction as they don't want to get involved. The Bank if fully aware of all of these things and knows they "own" their employies so to speak. You are in a no-win situation "unless" you demolish your hair for them, which knowing you will never happen.
Your mother has lived long enough to know the "real world" which a younger person naturally doesn't know of because of lack of experience. (It happens to us all.) Your Mom is correct and she herself knows it is unfair, but the average person doesn't stand a chance unless armed with Millions upon Millions of $$$$$$$$ to fight with and make News Headlines. If that be the case, the Bank would definately cower and shake in their boots as they would not in the slighest want such publicity for they would know it would mean loss of business. They would end all of this nonsence pronto and declare to the Press that all was a misunderstanding and that in no way did they mean you would be fired and that in fact you are a great worker. (Anything to cover their butt.) And, they wouldn't DARE pick on you again!
Such is life.............but it shouldn't be.
By the way, the Banks and Insurance Companies seem to rank 1st in a situation as you have just encountered. (My own observation.) It all depends vastly on the place and type of business. A College Professor would be in the clear as would a Scientist, Musician, Artist and so many more occupations. (Even within the government workers.)
My best to you Jean in the way you handle all of this as a true gentleman. Funny, but you just never know. Sometimes when push comes to shove and a formal "polite" resigination notice is received, they may suddenly change their minds and (because of the position they are currently in with GOOD workers) tell you that you are welcome to stay. (In a case such as this they wouldn't let on that at the moment they are short of good workers.) It's a toss of the dice.
I DO think you have a great handle on all of this, and I am so glad all the members of this site have tried as best possible to help as we ourselves do to them. It isn't every internet site that offers what we have here which is so extra special. We long hairs understand ea. other and the desire to have long hair which by the very laws of nature we are as Humans suppose to have anyway.
Glad you vented all of this to us.
My best to you as always.
Justin~
thats why i lost so much respect for these companies. i go to work and don't even bother to pull it back or try to do anything neat with it anymore...no one appreciates it anyway. i just leave it hang in my face and shaggy and get the same treatment i would otherwise. good luck with your search, you'll find something.
Just a note.....you say they have left no paper trail regarding the demand that you cut their hair....and then say they could fire you for some general reason, like incompetence.
Well, unless there is a paper trail showing you've been reprimanded for incompetence or other disciplinary reasons, you'd have a pretty strong stance for a discriminatory practices argument.
Hi Jean,
Good for you and sticking to your guns and principles and at times it does seen that some of us longhair folk are dealt a bad hand of cards to use a pun.
You mum has some good wise words there. I was suprised that there wasn't better laws in OZ. It's just omne of those things that some employers are like.
Look at me at a vocation in computers and so far had no issues and I've walked out of a couple of interviews when asked and I've also asked to see the company dress code. Perhaps someone of my ancient years, lol, the grey hair shows some sense of knowing how the world should be.
Keep us in touch with you career stuff.
Cheers,
John.B
Hey 80s Metal,
I think I am in the same situation as you are...I work in a government job here in Canada and we are unionized and have great backing when it comes to discrimination. But the uncomfortable feeling remains and often I feel like cutting my hair just to feel more accepted.
I even thought..well if 80s cuts his hair then maybe I should too. But when you or me cut our hair it hurts our long hair community by showing that we fear "the man." Which in a lot of ways exists in our minds moreso than in reality.
What an issue for people like us to go through...We just want our self expression, and why do some people seem to get away with it while others cannot. I just don't feel comfortable with short hair but feel like I am uncomforting others with my long hair..so what to do?
I just remember that even if you cut your hair, you can be disciplined or discriminated for anything anyways...The only way would be to get more people to grow their hair out..so where the longhairs start to gain in numbers..What a great world that would be eh?
Let's all just keep going bc without our hair..I dunno if life would be so great anyways..It's tough to have your hair and the job you want and acceptance..but it may happen..and with that in mind there is no good reason to cut.
Cheers
Buddy
Also..if these matters seem so pressing..
Remember the Universe Song by Monty Python..
Should hopefully put things in perspective.
Cheers
Buddy
Hello Buddy,
I think that because no one seems to have brought up long hair at work as an issue about you, you are in no danger. You may have people tell you that if you cut your hair you get better chances of advancement and so on. Just don't listen to them... they are not in your shoes.
I do not know what you do in Government, but I work in a university as a computer technician, and no one had ever told me anything about my hair, except to tie it back on a bad hair day (hot and humid summer days)... which is no worse than being told to wipe off ketchup off one's face that one did not notice after lunch.
Having Asperger's Syndrome means that I will not sense subtle reactions people can have about my hair... and while nothing is said, I have no problems. I even have a few compliments about my hair by some people.
If people compliment you, even if only one compliments you it counts as 10 votes against one negative comment.
I wouldn't worry if I were you, for Canada is less "image concious" than the US when it comes to hairstyles. There is lots of guys with long hair working in Government and even private firms where I live (Montreal.). Maybe Alberta or Winnipeg may be different.
Have a nice day,
Georges in Montreal.
Hi Jean... I'm so sorry that I haven't replied to your first message about this, i couldn't read it, I've been so busy with school these days... Either ways, wathever you do, don't cut your hair... There is ALWAYS another way to go... people can't force you to be who you are not, and I'm sure someone will emply you despite your hair... Your hair is really well maintained, and you can always use it as an argument... I don't know, this makes me so sad =( But don't quit it, I'm sure there are good people out there that understand what a really human being is... I'm so sorry that I've got my hands tied up to this and can't help you in no way now... =( I just hope everything will be fine in the end, with a good job and long hair for you =) Just have faith in yourself =) I wish you the best luck Jean... You surely deserve it =)
I am only 18 years old and I do not have a job yet, however as some board members remember, I went through pretty much the same torture and discrimination at a Catholic school (which I am happy to say I've left), so I know what you're feeling.
All I can say is don't give up. There were plenty of guys at my school who cut their hair and gave in, but I did my research and found the same vague wording in our rulebook, and I won my case.
The bottom line is, I still have my beautiful hair, and that school, specifically the idiot Dean, will never forget me, the guy who won.
As I said, I'm only 18, however I refuse to accept that kind of mentality adults tell me; the whole "that's how society is" and "just suck it up. get with the program. life sucks."
NO. I don't live that way. If something is unfair and wrong and almost everyone knows it, is it right that everyone does NOTHING ABOUT IT? No, it is not, my dear friend.
It is my goal to one day help change the world to a more understanding and nurturing place for all people to live and work. I'm never going to cut my hair and I'm never going to stop fighting for what I believe in, be it this cause or any other in the future.
So anyway, I wish the best of luck to you. If you decide to leave that place, do not worry. I know for a fact that there are a lot of major corporations, let alone supermarkets, that do not treat you with the same disrespect. Your actions are setting a great example, and I know you'll do just fine.
-Ender
That's ok. I am only 19, 1 year older than you. Age is irrelevant. We may not have a wise understanding of how the world works but we sure do know what is just and equal and to stand up for our rights. I went to a catholic school aswell. I would have loved to grow my hair in school but that was definitely out of the question. I feel that in this point of time, almost 1.5 years later, the same evil is coming back to haunt me. BTW, is yor hair still chin length or , as i can bet, much longer now?
Speaking of "normal"...im anything but normal. But i know this is who i am and what i like to be, therefore i don't change anything for any pathetic jobs. It's not the government that hires people to work for jobs but it's the managers, and if the managers don't mind the hair it won't be that hard to get a job. As for your worries in getting a job... when you get out of school with a nice degree and they see who they are dealing with, they won't even think of discriminating against you in anyway, because they'll know that they can't. As i've heard you say before; there are many longhairs in Australia...have a talk with a few of them and see what they're doing with "jobs" and their lives, im sure they have a reason for going to your school...if none of them have any hope they why bother? Seriously, don't think everything your mother, or anyone else says is true until you speak with someone that is going through the same things you are(i.e. friends around your age who are also longhaired), then come up with a conclusion. Lol, don't let small talk discourage and depress you.
Hope everything goes well for you.
-Oleg-
Yes, you raised some worthy points. There are LOADS of long haired guys here. I have a few long haired friends but not many. From what i have seen most are musos and into rock music. I have also seen many 'bogan', redneck types with long hair and/or mullets. There are different factions or groups of male long hairs. I have seen some longhairs working in the record stores and in the music stores. I shouldn't get discouraged by what my mother said, you're right. I have to tell myself to think positive, not negative, even under oppressing situations like these.
Sadly, I would have to say your mom is mostly right, but not completely by anymeans. True, many employers wont accept long hair on guys nowadays.
But there are ALWAYS exceptions to rules. whether or not you got out of college with a professional degree, if you keep looking, sooner or later you will find a company so desperate, they will take you regardless of your hair! It happened to me a few days ago. I was turned away from several stores that were highering because of my hair and its only 6 to 6.5 inches long.
However I found a place that really didnt care much. It was an opening for a dishwasher at a retirement home, pay is 8.50 US $$ an hour. Here is what the manager said after the original interviewer brought up my hair as an issue not to higher me for: "I don't give two craps how long his hair is. Aslong as he keeps it out of his face and puts it in a pony tail when its long enough to, its fine. We are not in the position to be that choosy."
And I was highered in! The person who orginally complained, later complemented me on how good of a worker I was! Now, I am the cooks' favorite dishwasher because I do such a good job!
Yes, a dishwasher is a pretty low end job. But a journey of a million miles begins with a single step!
What ever happens, dont give into pressure to cut your hair! Keep looking and sooner or later you will find a loophole!
Hi 80s,
Why don't you ask HR to send you a note by e-mail or in writing that "business like" in men means no hair over the collar, ears, and eyes, and that a pony tail is not accepted. That would improve your chances at the anti-discrimination board. You may say politely, that you are waiting for their written memo (or e-mail) before you make your decision.
Don't expect them to be crushed after you mentioned the anti-discrimination laws - they would be poor poker players if they'd reacted like "Oh my goodness, you are right, of course! Forget our policy, just grow your hair!"
Even without further written evidence, their policy is fishy, even if it weren't outrightly discriminatory. At the very least, it is blatantly obvious that they have different hair regulations in mind for men and women - and that's illegal. Once they get a call from the anti-discrimination board, they'll be very nervous, and they'll try very hard not to show it to you.
By the way, I do have respect for your mother, but she seems to be unduly worried about your carreer prospects. You WILL get other jobs with your hair - I think you got that right. Only some parts of society work that way, and when she was younger, during her formative years, things were probably worse than today. - Think of Jonathan Schwartz, CEO of Sun Microsystems! You probably NEED to study and rise through the ranks in order to get to a level where you can do what YOU want.
And here's something I wanted to say all the time: Many of us are told that long hair long is something trivial, and we should cut it - but for those who want to make us conform, hair is NOT trivial at all. Let's face it, for us, the hair issue is not trivial, either! The fact that people like you and me and Justin and Jason, to name a few, spend time posting over that issue clearly bespeaks otherwise - let's stop pretending.
The strong wish to wear our hair long is part of our nature and our personality - and we should deal with that with a heavy dose of healthy self acceptance. There's NOTHING wrong with being strong-minded and stubborn about that issue - it's certainly NOT neurotic! Otherwise, there'd be a lot of short-haired neurotic men in this world (but maybe there are ? ;-)
Wishing you hair peace, a good job, and all the best,
Hans-Uwe
Jean, I certainly do know how you feel about all this. I cannot believe that all these things transpire over and over again. It is all so ridiculous that something so harmless as hair on the head can cause such fervor and upheaval.
You know that insanity is a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world! You will get thru all this. And if you were (notice use of subjunctive - condition contrary to fact) to cut your hair, you would be so dismayed and upset that this would make you further suffer. There are jobs out there for a guy just like you with your hair as it is. EVERY time I go to town shopping, I will see some guy or guys with long hair. None of them are homeless, and the majority of them are dressed in decent clothes and driving a reasonable decent vehicle. This proves that it is not only possible, but highly probable that there is a job for you, and a course steady and true that you will enjoy for a career.
Good luck!
Yes, it is ridiculous. How can something as trivial as hair cause so much fuss and trouble?
As you said, and i love this quote, "hair is nothing, yet it is everything".
That's exactly my reasoning. Whether i cut my hair or not i am still going to leave, either way. If i did cut my hair i would be unhappy, depressed and resent the heirarchy of company management. My worker morale would plummet and then i would get fired or 'layed off' for incompetence. Either that, or i would probably do something to get revenge , like stealing money or causing destruction to stock/goods which incriminate me and is very stupid.
I hope this works for you, any mom should be proud her son wants to stand up for what is important to him. As a mother she wants to see you do well in life and to her that means being employable. Self-directed appearance to her is a secondary need that can be afforded only if other needs are met first. As long as you won't be homeless and hungry, your emotional need to be your long-haired self should be given as much importance as you wish. She may not be able to understand that but disagreeing with parents on what is best for you is part of growing up.
My boyfriend got the same advice from his mother after college and he cut his waist length hair to improve his chances and it did work for him at the time. He grew it back eventually but due to age it will never be as long again. It sounds like that is not going to happen to you and I am glad for it.
I could tell you were feeling strongly about this, there were some wide eyes on my side of the screen as I read the off-color language in some of your posts. I'm glad to see you are getting it more together now, you're in a better position to fight intelligently with a clearer mind and without the namecalling.
Elizabeth
Your Mom is trying to protect you, but what does she know?
For the last year the NYC board of education has run adds in the NYT featuring a handsome dude whose hair makes Fallen_angels look short.
New York City calling teachers. They pay well too.
My experience here in North Carolina is that there is no or minimal discrimination, especially in areas in which some degree of certified competence is necerssary for the job. There may very well be discrimination and intimidation in factory work or basic retail, I do not know. But I would not guess that from the men and women who check me out at the grocery store.
I am convinced that more and more it is attitude about the job and competence to do it, and not length of hair.
I am a member of an organizaton which is dedicated to supporting the constitution of the US, and especially the bill of rights, and I assure you if we found an instance of discrimanation about hair length we would be on to it presto.
Here is a copy of the ad James is talking about.
It is good to discuss an issue such as this from different perspectives and viewpoints and in such depth, although it is still unfortunate that it happened to you!
Anyway, I think you have handled this very well. Also, if our board can help you in this situation, then please don't feel bad about 'venting'.
I wish you all the best with this and look forward to a Jean with mid-back to waist length hair!
Dean
P.S. I am very aware of the longhair discrimation out there. I have also always hated working for a boss, which is why I intend to be self-employed one day as a physiotherapist, osteopath, doctor etc. and in the short term (hopefully by January 2007) as a Personal Trainer.
There is always hope and another way (not including to the local barber, that is!)
Picture: In a local history museum, after complaints from a few private school principals, personnel were told to cut their hair, and paintings of long-haired men were removed so that students would not find any excuse to grow their hair long. (Warning: This is meant as fiction, an allegory of what would happen if the anti-longhair trend would go too far, so please do not panic :) )
Hello,
I hadn't had a chance to add my two cents to your situation. When I was your age I was going through a lot of what you are going through now, but on an other level. I never had the situation of having my long hair accepted for a while then have management have second thoughts in mid carreer and tell me to cut off my hair. I am as stubborn about you about keeping my hair long but I did sacrifice carreer for this.
Before getting my current job as a technician at Université du Québec, I did work as a bike messenger for nine years, just because I did not have to cut my hair. I remember fellow bikers bitching over the imposition of a uniform at one time, the "uniform" being a blue jersey, and for winter a coat with the company logo and that's it, nobody had to cut off hair or beards. I tucked mine under a cap.... and no hair loss because of that. I did that because the wind and dirt would get into my hair while I was riding my bike all over town, and in winter, the dirty snow, slush would make me very dirty... so I protected my hair while working.
A lot of people sacrificed their hair for careers, I did the opposite, but in the long term I ended up in an environment where I am happy. Since your current job is a part time job, I do suggest that you try to fight off the nonsense hair rules to the best of your abilities, and at the same time look elsewhere. I do not know if you are in a big city or a small town that is very conservative. Your chances are better in a bigger city where long hair is not an issue, and try to make career choices in domains where long hair is not an issue. That is why I chose computers.
My mom was at times very strict about my hair, but I had the luck of finding a job upon graduation... as a computer programmer, but in the late eighties, the demand for programmers dwindled, and more companies were looking for short-haired customer-centered "consultants" insted of programmers, so that is when I started my biker carreer for 9 years. I learned to fix computers in the meanwhile, and landed a job at a university.
It is important to be happy in your life, and like me you will have arguments with your mom over hair length. Your mom worries about your future just as my mom did. Eventually she got to accept that my hair was part of me, comparing me to someone who would have liked to live in the days of Dartagnan and the Three Musketeers, for I was perceived as having some of that "Gascon Pride" in me.
I wish you all the best, and this is a part of life where your will really grow up and know what you really want in life. I am sure you will come out with your hair intact.
Have a nice day,
Georges in Montreal.
I'm so sorry you have to go through all of this, even with current laws in place to protect you!
A couple of thoughts on the subject.
Firstly, In your position I might quit too, but I probably wouldn't. However, if I did quit, I would say why in the letter, send a copy of the letter to the authorities, and say in the letter that I had done so. You have nothing to lose by doing that, and the satisfaction of imagining the HR dept squirming would be nice.
More likely, I would ask for the policy in writing. They might give it if they thought that meant you would comply, and then you could forward it on to the powers that be.
Frankly, it is the fact that you don't need the job that means you are obligated to drag them over the coals. No one expects you to hire a lawyer, but it's your duty to make trouble for the company for the sake of the next guy.
If you were in a weaker economic position... well, if I'm honest if it were me I would still do the same thing, but then I'm a stubborn B!
