new thread
I just recently told one of my friends i was going to grow my hair back and he rips this BS off some christian site; i know this isnt a place to debate religion and i dont intend to do that, i just need to vent at how pissed off this made me.
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For the man’s part, it is unnatural for him to have “long hair” (verse 14). His hair is naturally shorter (and thinner) than the woman’s. This corresponds to the Corinthian tradition of men not wearing a head covering during worship. Paul urges the church to conform to the generally held ideas of male and female appearance.
(Unnatural to have long hair? Right because man was put on earth along WITH scissors to cut the hair... no it is unnatural not to have long hair. Terminal length being what it is shows that.)
While hair length is not the main point of this passage of scripture, we glean the following applications from it: 1) We should adhere to the culturally accepted indicators of gender. Men should look like men, and women should look like women. God is not interested in nor does He accept “unisex.” 2) Don’t rebel against the culture just for the sake of rebelling, in the name of some sort of Christian “liberty.” It does matter how we present ourselves. 3) Women are to voluntarily place themselves under the authority of men in the church. 4) We should not reverse the God-ordained roles of men and women.
Our culture today does not use veils or head coverings to indicate submission to authority. The roles of men and women have not changed, but the way we symbolize those roles changes with the culture. Rather than establish legalistic standards of hair length, we must remember that the real issue is our heart condition, our individual response to the authority of God, His ordained order, and our choice to walk in submission to that authority. Men and women have different, God-ordained roles, and part of that difference is shown by their hair. A man's hair should look masculine. A woman's hair should look feminine.
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A mans hair should look masculine?!??! WHAT THE F DOES THAT EVEN MEAN! I hate these retards with preconcieved notions of what people should be and what we shouldn't. Humans are unnatural in every single way. Out of all the other animals we destroy everything, we wear clothes.... going by the laws of nature it is unnatural to do any of these things....
Either way despite the attempt at being force fed this bull; I told my friend that this time my hair will not be cut short again untill the generic portrayle of jesus is changed to something other than a long haired male.
What rubbish on that site. Men and women's hair is the same.
take a look at this
http://www.metalforjesus.org/guest2.htm
basically lists bible passages that show long hair on guys in a more favorable light, and then clarifies them for you. i like to use this site when people do to me what your friend did to you.
oh i know theres also stuff that says that long hair is not the terrible attrocity this other source makes it out to me. it just angers me because places like the one that was used on me alienate people and make a religion out to be something its not and causes more harm than good. i think ive read that site before with something about them wanting women to have long hair so they werent mistaken for prostitutes or whatever.
I guess it is human nature to make a religion out of anything. Even people who denies being in a religion is in fact in a religion. Christianity isnt really a religion because there are no set of standard of living, the whole thing is just a relationship with a personal God and rules does differ depending on personality. However I guess later on people would get together and have a religion cause it gives a sense of organization, but it also de-personalizes God as it was origionally intended. Then later somehow people get it in their head they can make money by brainwashing people into giving them money and stuff, so religion became a tool to keep people under control and keep the gold coming.
Man, I hate when this kind of thing comes up. This, to me, represents one of the major problems the modern-day Christian has - interpretation of the Bible, which has been written in a way that is up in today's world for a heck of a lot of interpretations. The thing is, I've always figured that if man was divinely supposed to have short hair, the fact that hair keeps growing is like a constant enforcement to show how dedicated you are to following the faith. You know, temptation every few months. See who finally gives in.
The problem with things like this is that it demonizes concepts like androgyny that are revered in many other cultures/religions. I figure that we should do what feels right to us, whether it fits into the moral code of our religion or not. I mean, in the end, it's what makes you feel the best inside. One day you may find it's time for a change.
Just follow your heart in all this stuff and ignore the people trying to take you down. Your hair looked awesome before. You should definitely show it off to the world.
My 2 or 3 cents.
Peace
Don't worry about this xian b/s! All they ever say is a lie and their so-called religion is nothing more than piecemeal. They know nothing about nothing and think they have all the answers, when in truth xianity is just a tool to force people to conform to the ruling powers. To be like sheep - their religion even tells them they're sheep and you know what sheep are for? To be eaten by wolves!
But men shaving their faces is, of course, perfectly alright and acceptable for the pious man :P
If men didn't shave, their heads would automatically look masculine, no?
How true.
You see? They lie and they lie and even when they tell the truth they still lie :)
Lynx
Um... I may not be a Christian (either, since you don't appear to be much of one), and we are all entitled to our opinions, but show some respect. There's no indication that Helgast is not a Christian and that you aren't actually offending instead of encouraging him.
The use of the term "Xian" is even more offensive. Just remember that lynx can team up with the wolves, but the lion can still take them all down. In other words...think before you speak.
I'm not trying to start any war with you. Just giving my couple o' cents.
Peace, so mote it be, and all that good stuff
Xian alternative spelling of Christian, by analogy with Xmas as an alternative spelling of Christmas. "X" resembles the Greek letter × (Chi), the first letter of "Christ" in Greek (×ñéóôüò), transliterated (Christos).
Hmm. I picked up that it was like "Xmas," but I thought it was more of a pejorative term than anything else - "Xmas," common holiday that it is, I can understand the changing of the word, but Christian? That just seems to be taking it a bit far, IMHO.
Thanks for the info.
Sorry, the Greek scr ipt did not come through well.
I don't think Xian is in very common usage however.
Okay, you're right on this one. Apologies to you, Helgast, if you're a christian - what I'm trying to say is that these people should not be allowed to dictate how you feel and you don't need to put up with their b/s for one second!
I see that Bragi has already taught you something here...
And btw, lynx and wolves do not overlap territory with lions :)
I don't know what's worse? The religous fundementalist types that spew the garbage like what Helgast found, or the so called "anti-religous" types that spew the type of garbage like the above quoted?
I wonder who is just forcing who these days with regard to religion? The fundementalist that try to force thier brand of religion on people or the "anti-religion" types trying to force thier lack of belief? I just wonder who is really the sheep here (a sheep in wolf's clothing?).
Just for the record, I'm not "anti-religion", but I AM against those religions which try to force their will and their deities upon other people. Remember: the point of this post was Helgast being bombarded with right-wing, neocon, fundamentalist, Xian propaganda and he was upset about that. I told him not to worry about it and that these people, with no solid foundation to stand on, must not be allowed to dictate how he feels. Capice?
I'll say no more.
I do agree with what you are saying here. To bad somebody decides to blast thier propaganda out and try to hide behind a religion (Christianity itself does not care what length one's hair is - this is simply somebody taking a passage out of the Bible out of context and trying to use it towards thier own personal agenda) Unfortunatly, Christianity is hardly the only religion where there are "right-wing neocon fundementalists". Just look in the Middle-East.
How would those who are "anti-religion" (or those not interested in religion) be "forcing" a LACK of belief on others?
Certainly not with the threat of eternal torture, I think that one is taken already and involves belief in the supernatural and a level of gulliblity.
I don't like it when some overly religous type tells me that I am somehow "wrong" because I grow my hair long, listen to heavy metal, play RPGs, read fantasy/sci-fi novels, watch fantasy/sci-fi movies, don't go to church every sunday, etc.
At the same time, don't anybody dare tell me that God does not exist and that I am somehow "gullible", or "a sheep following the herd" because I choose to follow a religion (for the record, I am a Roman Catholic, although hardly considered "devout"). Also, I don't appreciate all the BS that usually goes on around the holidays with people bitching about nativity scenes or trying to get the Christmas Tree renamed as a "Holiday Tree". Why is it that traditions that have been followed for many years are now all of a suddenly "wrong"?
They all will get the same type of reaction from me, which is basically, in no uncertain terms, me telling them where they can all "stick it"!
Well, if people insist on tell you about their beliefs and you have information to the contrary then you have one of two choices:
One is to remain silent (done most often) and allow those proselytizing to continue their campaign unabaited...or the other is to discuss the subject head on with them which is usually interpreted as an attack on their beliefs.
Personally I hear many theists spouting more lack of understanding about their beliefs than understanding. I know they don't look at it this way but informing someone of something they seem to be missing and which can be corroborated is not a bad thing, it's passing on real knowledge.
BTW, why are you Catholic? If you were born in Iran would you probably also follow the herd over there and be Muslim?
The bitching is not about nativity scenes, it's about the government endorsing a particular religion by allowing particular religious groups to use taxpayer public land for displaying/promoting their religious beliefs. A lot of the people "bitching" are theists from religious beliefs other than your's.
No one is taking issue with the right for people to do this on their own or on private property or to freely practice whatever beliefs they want...as long as the government is not giving the impression that they endorse it (not their business) and use taxpayer resources to help promote it.
This isn't an "all of a sudden" kind of thing but the exchange of more information these days helps more people to realize what has been going on and this shows that our society is continually learning how to better live up to the ideals of the constitution (what all of this is based on).
You have your belief that there is no God, and I have my belief that there is a God. We could go back and forth with this, and it'll be just like watching a NASCAR race - going around in circles at a high rate of speed, but getting nowhere. However, I don't go around trying to impose my beliefs on others, but I'll defend my beliefs in face of attack.
Any why are you an atheiest? This could go both ways (from my own experience, plenty of atheiest also "follow the herd"). I am certain if you were in Iran, you would end up being muslim for the simple fact that it is forced over there. At least in this country, it is not forced. I'll admit that being a Catholic has a lot with my upbringing, but I've yet to see anything to convince me to stop being a Catholic. If you really want to get deep into the philosphy of the whole thing, fine (I'll have to dig up my old text), but I don't think this is the place to do it.
I am done as I don't feel like arguing about something as personal as one's religous beliefs. You can continue to believe there is no God, but I am going to continue to believe that there is.
Oh, NOT believing in god-beings is definately NOT following the herd when about 95% of the country claims they have a belief in such a supernatural being. Personally I was brought up in the majority religion but walked away from the herd as I grew more knowledgable. That was a choice I made based on facts and reason.
In Iran there are actually some people who are not Muslim but the social climate/tradition from birth encourages people to follow Islam and the government officially enforces Islamic moral laws (this is why it is so dangerous to have governments intertwined with religion). And yes, that is the answer; if you were born there you would probably be Muslim just like if you are born in America you will probably be Christian...as you are and as I was.
I agree that this is not the place for this but when I see statements that are way off the mark I call 'em.
Remember that many of the people you are accusing of taking it too far are also god-believers, they just don't believe in your god.
That situation in that article actually deals with community standards rules and not the matter of religion. Some places are very strict with appearance rules and many are not. I live in a condo and ANY alteration to the outside has to be approved by the board and must be in accordance with the rules. There is also a limit on seasonal displays and it has nothing to do with religon. It looks as if the family in the article (and the religion section of the paper) had an interest in making look like a religious issue. The family pointed out the nativity as being targeted but if you'll notice it is the bulk and centerpiece of the display but no doubt the other gaudy plastic figures were also included in what was being objected to.
That's fine by me, I always say that people can believe anything they want, there is plenty of room in the world for everyone......as long as they don't try to push it on me. I just wish some people would also keep their religion as more of a personal thing like you said.
(And don't believe John Gibson or Bill O'Riley on Fox about the ficticious "War on Xmas", they are full of it and getting rich off of it).
Back in the old days, like Old Testament times, some people made a covenant to God therefore they were not supposed to cut their hair for the duration of the covenant. I think the Bible calls them Naserites. Samson was one, and I think the old testament people regards Naserites to be holy. I believe the verse in 1 Corinthitians were talking of cultural stuff and it is NOT a commandment. In fact the only commandment we should be concerned with as a Christian is Love the Lord with all your soul and whatever, and love others as yourself. I do know for a FACT that this is very hard and probably no one will ever love others as themselves because of our selfish nature, however I really think that Jesus is not concerned about your hair or your sexual orientation, whatever the church might tell you. In fact you should tell the churches to **** off because the church does not decide your salvation, and no amount of "good deed" will save you either.
Oh, there are lots of people out there with poor self-esteem and self-loathing who love others more than themselves. If you haven't run into them yet then you will someday. Self-love does not automatically mean bad selfishness. Being selfish is not always bad either.
Christianity is a religeon of "living by example," as it is based around the concept of living by the example of Christ. In this light, Christians live by the example of Christ, and due to this they, like Christ, must make an example of themselves to others. Make sense? So, you want to set the best example you can. This includes appearing modest and sensible, I don't want to say "good looking," but you know what I mean, you want a decent appearance that sends out a good message about you to others. As I believe, though, this can most certainly be achieved just as well with long hair man or woman.
Hi Helgast,
it is more than understandable that certain pseudo-Christian rhetoric makes you super-angry. I share that anger! What surprises me, is that this rhetoric is at-large in the northeast of the US where you live. I know quite a few people in that region, and I didn't think that there was a fundamentalist-type "bible belt" mentality around.
To put it flippantly, I think good Christian humor and FUN beats primitive FUNdamentalism 1000:1 . On the other hand, maybe we should be generous towards those with a very fearful and narrow conscience - but without allowing them to dictate our life...
It's amply clear that the often-quoted Corinthian verses do NOT support any kind of "Christian short-hair rule", especially, if we look at the Greek text. Some of the arguments can be found in the book "What Paul really said about women" by John Temple Bristow. And, you're right, stupid sexism of any brand can't be justified with the bible, if we REALLY care about the original text (i.e. Greek or Hebrew).
I wouldn't waste too much time trying to convert some of the hard-core fundamentalists. Rather, spend more time those friends who are tolerant and open-minded. There are many true Christians around who do NOT subscribe to a narrow-minded fundamentalist-type theology.
I for my part, I'm looking forward to your 2007/2008/2009 updates - I'm certain, it'll be the best hair you've ever had!
In any case, happy growth!
Hans-Uwe
This is so annoying. And it's not only Christians' views because my grandmother was astonished when I told her I'm going to get long hair and she said "Aaaa are you a girl?!" which was so annoying. She's conservative like really conservative and so are my parents we don't get along about anything.
Bulgaria used to be very conservative before 1990 and that is why they're so narrow-minded and just annoy the crap outta me! Even if they throw me out of the house I won't cut my hair, it's a matter of living your life.
So Hans don't even care about what they say, that's what im gonna do from now on. Everyone can do whatever they feel like and there's nothing that can be qualified as normal or abnormal. If we want we'll grow our hair long to the ass and use it instead of toilet paper!
Hi grrrrr,
are you writing from Bulgaria? I'd thought that, in the Eastern European countries, things are a lot more relaxed than they used to be. What's the situation in public there? I had heard that things have eased up in most Eastern European countries, so I'm a bit surprised...
And, I understand that Bulgaria is mainly Orthodox Christian, and I thought that many Orthodox priests have long hair and long beards. (One off-topic remark: Even though I'm not Orthodox myself, I find the Orthodox liturgy fascinating, full of beautiful symbolisms.) - By the way, if you want to move elsewhere, that'll be easy as soon as Bulgaria has joined the EU.
Hope your hair grows to your butts and beyond in record time! Looking forward to your 2007/2008 updates!
Hans-Uwe
Haha thanks a bunch. Where are you from?
Well things have really eased up here but I was talking about my parents and other relatives that have grown in their stupid old times lol. And I was unlucky born in a conservative family and I happen to be extremely liberal and prone to crazy stuff. I would like to study and live abroad but it might not be that bad here afterall as long as I leave my parents as soon as possible.
I don't care much about religion but as far as I know Orthodox Christianity is far more relaxed than the Catholic one, our priests can get married lol!
I'll soon get my 3month progress pics I just need to get back to Sofia (it's where I live) right now i'm stuck at my grandma's...
Hi Гррррр,
Well, I'm from Germany. Fortunately, there seem to be very few places left here where hair is still an issue - even our military has lost a major court case and had to relaxed its hair rules...
True, we can't pick our parents, and, when I was young, mine used to be quite uptight when it came to hair. Today they're old, and now, it's a non-issue to them - one of the things I can be grateful for.
Are you above 18, so that, legally, you could move out whenever you can afford it?
Best wishes, and happy growth forever!
Hans-Uwe
Hehe, I can see you've been using cyrillic charts cool! I'm 16 (well will be in a few hours :D) and nothing will prevent me from growing my hair!
щаÑтлив рожден ден на теб!
Well, I got that from an online dictionary - in case I goofed up: I meant to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!
I understand that ден is masculine - so are the endings o.k.?
Best wishes, and happy growth forever!
Hans-Uwe
i think it's mostly western europe and mediterranean countries that are more relaxed and liberal although they still hold their traditions and beliefs. and it's not just the Orthodox Christians in Bulgaria who are still conservative, some Muslims are like that too lol
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It has happened to me at least twice in Orthodox country. Went to the Carpathian mountains in Ukraine and been asked by the villagers if I am a priest !
I said simply 'No, I'm not a monk nor priest...' , but I found that I didn't convince them. They quickly hid bottle of a moonshine...
I usually wear black/dark and often walk alone...
Cheers, Adalbert
Hahah! That was funny, if you wear long hair -- you're a priest; if you're a priest -- you're a pedophile; That's what they decide here tsk tsk tsk. Thanks and I'm looking forward to my happy and unstressful (hopefully) growth =}
Funny how people think they know just what God wants, as if they were super-human or something. Figure it out. If God didn't want men to have long hair, then why would men's hair grow long?
One thing you have to realize; this is not an attack on you by Christianity. It is an attack on you by an individual who is using Christianity (and isolated passages)to justify their bias because they have no justification of their own, and want to force their bias on you.
During the time the Bible was written (over several hundred years) men wore robes. Men had long hair. Look at Leonardo da Vinci's "THE LAST SUPPER" painting. Over half the disciples are shown with long hair.
Isolated passages from any book can be taken out of context and used in almost any fasion. That's what is being done here.
Not to promote Christianity here, but to clear up a couple of misconceptions I have noticed, and to explain my response, please bear with me. For the record, I am a Christian.
True Christians believe that through their faith they will be saved. Period.
They also believe that their sins will be forgiven if they have faith. So if people say that having long hair is wrong or sinful, if it is wrong it is forgiven. If not wrong, no problem.
Next time he brings it up, tell him this. If he is a Christian he will agree. If he doesn't, let him know he is the one not following the teachings of Christianity. Not you. Put the monkey on his back.
This simple rule applies for everything for those who have faith. If wrong, forgiven. If not, no problem to begin with.
So for those who denounce Christianity, please reevaluate. Don't let the opinions of one or two people cause you to hold millions accountable for these incorrect references.
Big George
That painting was done several hundred years after New Testament times and as the rest of the artwork in the Middle Ages it's images only loosely resemble the situations of the characters they are portraying. Usually the subjects were done off of models or made to reflect certain characteristics of the society at the time.
In the past I have been a Christian and one thing that a lot of people didnÂ’t understand was that the bible is a tool for building a personal relationship with God. The bible warns of Pharisees and man presenting his interpretation as the word of God.
A lot of people said that I had to listen to my priest and that I was wrong about the bible because I didnÂ’t interpret it the same as them or the priest or vicar. I said why am I wrong? Why should I listen to the priest? God sees him as no more important than me or anyone else in the world. You people are only listening to his interpretation and the established interpretation.
The problem with Christianity is the same problem we have with life; In Christianity just like in life most people donÂ’t form there own interpretations or opinions, they just listen to people in power and the established opinion without thinking for themselves.
So the problem isnÂ’t Christianity. Christianity teaches you to learn the meaning of the bible yourself and warns you against listening to Pharisees and man saying his word of God is the best. The problem is with human nature.
Helgast...terminal length means nothing because terminal length being what it is for man is a product of man's own devices. Here is why. Man's ability to critically reason let him know a whole long time ago, eons ago, even before modern Homo Sapiens that he would increase his chances of survival to not have long terminal length hair trailing behind him that would allow others, meaning to do him harm, to grab on to. After seeing a few of the other members of his clan or tribe or whatever meet their ends in this manner he learned that if he or someone he knew would take a sharp stone or knife or whatever was used for cutting before scissors, and chop off his hair at shoulder length or less, then his chances of survival were increased. So this became a common practice for the males in many societies. They did not wear short hair by today's standards by any means but they also did not wear hair to terminal length.
Now let's suppose that instead man did not have this ability to critically think or reason logically or fashion tools like sharp rocks and crude knives which would allow him to chop his hair off shorter than terminal length. And let's also suppose that man never gained this ability to think critically up till this day. In that case through all those years of evolution do you suppose that terminal length today would be what it was for the males of the species or perhaps a whole lot shorter? I would guess a whole lot shorter since those who naturally only can grow their hair to a shorter terminal length would have had a greater chance for survival and their genetic pool would come to dominate. Therefore current terminal length is not indicative of man in his natural state at all, but is a product of man's ability to figure out that he would increase his chances of survival if he cut his hair off much shorter than terminal length. This allowed the genes of those men with very long terminal lengths to survive in the current gene pool. Terminal length means nothing and has been influenced by man's practice of cutting his hair off much shorter than terminal length for a very long time; cutting the hair shorter actually caused terminal lengths on men at present to be longer than they would be if man had never cut his hair. Terminal Length should not be a guide to man's natural state. Man's natural state is to evaluate what is most aesthetically pleasing in terms of hair style.
No offence, but do you have any credible sources that confirm this?
Let me disagree there. Men in ancient, and not-so-ancient times, valued long hair as a sign of honor and respect, even amongst battling warriors and knights, amongst martial artists and amongst nobility. People even wore wigs to simulate longer hair, and that includes a lot of men, even the founding fathers of the US.
Having hair shorter did nothing for the genetic pool, it did not increase survival, it did not make terminal lenght longer than intended either. I doubt you could bring formal proof of it, while I could bring you proof of my point.
Ah, hilarious... that little diatribe made me laugh, as usual. Though, definitely true... I agree with your statement, though I also agree that men and women have different distinct roles in society (a slowly, and sadly, eroding trait of our culture), though that has little to do with hair. Other then the fact that men's jobs are often tougher, and require more "gettin' down 'n dirty" which is when their hair can get in the way... thinking of it that way it is understandable. For instance, it doesn't make much sense for a construction worker to have long hair (though if he wants it, then so be it).
As for the God stuff... just let them think what they want and let them go on their merry way. No use being "free", or expressing your constitutional rights in this Country...
-Ardroth
he doesn't sound like much of a friend, and he's certainly not much of a Christian if he believes that Christ's love depends on the length of one's hair. for the record, the passage in 1 Corinthians that he refers to are not the words of Christ, they are the words of the apostle Paul, and the passage begins "Does not the very nature of things teach..." it does NOT say "Does not Jesus teach...". the fact is, most Bible scholars are undecided as to what Paul meant by this whole passage.
the Christ i worship loves me, long hair, earrings, tattoos and all.
i'm not a Christian, but i will add my 2 cents nonetheless.
it's amazing how some people will pull out religion when they want you to do something (or don't want you to do something) but they tend to disregard the "little sins" that they commit everyday :p (depends on the person i would suppose). it's even worse if the person doesn't fully understand what they're reading...i doubt that they had actual scissors back then to cut hair. and even if they did, every man could not get a close shave the way we can today. and why would they think it's unnatural for a man to have long hair (something that grows naturally anyway)?
Ask your friend is he anti-homosexual and pro-slavery. Because the Bible's book Deuteronomy is both these things. And the other books? Oh, they encourage rape, wife-beating, genocide, you name it.
I don't mean to be anti-Christian. I just think people should apply logic more often. As humans, we grow a lot of hair on our heads. Many cut it short. Many let it grow long. What's the big deal?
We're rooting for you, Helgast.
Whats up Helgast. That same scripture was used on me by a pastor who told me I should cut my hair. He mentioned that long hair on a man brings shame and my life would never come together as long as I held on to my hair. I cut it and of course, regreted it. I realized that I was the same person with long or short hair and I grew my hair back and everything in my life has worked out fine. I believe the bible is the word of God and we need to read it in context. At that time it was a tradition to shave heads, so long hair would cause shame to the tradition, but was and never will be an abomination to God. He looks at the heart, not the outward. Good luck in everything and be yourself!
Mark
For a more long-hair friendly understanding of that passage, see the article I wrote in my blog a few months ago.