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I feel awful. I have a friend who is having a dilema right now with his girlfriend. I know a few of you on here have had similar sorts of things and I really dont know how and if I can help him. Any advice would be greatfully recieved!!
The story; I've known Dave since school he plays in a local band with some mates. He met a girl a few months ago and anything she wants he gets for her. He's totally besotted. She's recently been commenting on his appearance (shock horror) and saying things like she wants them to look like a 'normal couple'. Dave is gorgeous, he's over 6 foot, has hair down to his bum and wears really tatty jeans, sleeveless vests etc.. you know the type. So Miss Perfect now wants Mr Boring and she wants Dave to comply.
It's her parents anniversary next Saturday and they are having a big party. I am taking Dave out tomorrow to get him something decent (not boring but nice for the occassion) as he is useless at shopping. I promise you he will look really good (I have taste!!) Dave and the girl are also apparently announcing their engagement (something she's been pushing him for).
The main dilema he is having is his hair (what a surprise), she's been hinting at him cutting it and i know he doesnt want to. The thing i'm thinking is he will to make her happy. And he'll resent her for it. The truth is his mates dont like her at all and the last time she was in my house she actually asked me if i would cut his hair a bit shorter every time (I trim his split ends on occassion) without him noticing, I was mortified at the suggestion and i dont like or trust her myself now. She's a horrible sneaky so-and-so (being polite here lol)
I'm trying really hard to support him without getting involved in what is someone else's relationship. Do you know what I mean? If Dave was you, would you want your friend (me) to be truthful or would you rather not know and plod in with your gf???? Help!
Reading your post, there are two things about this woman that send red flags zipping up the pole for me:
* She pushed him for marriage
* She went behind his back to try and get his hair cut short
That tells me two things about her already:
She's manipulative, and deceitful; two things that should never exist in a marriage. Otherwise, it's doomed to fail.
Your post also tells me something about your friend:
He's not in love with this woman, rather, he's in lust. As a result, he's forgotten who he is in an effort to please her. In other words, he's become her "boy toy". Marriages built on lust never last. On a subconcious level, your friend is already miserable.
If you care about your friend and his future with this woman, you must tell him about what she tried to get you to do with his hair. I understand you don't like interfering in other peoples' lives, but this is one case you have to make an exception.
Marriage not only effects the couple who are engaged, it also effects the couples' friends and family. If no one likes this woman, that's also a tell-tale sign that she's a very bad match for him.
My 12th anniversary is in 9 days. My wife and I cultivated a strong bond as best friends for 6 years after being introduced to each other at a Star Trek fan club meeting. The very idea of dating each other never even crossed our minds until, one fateful evening, we found ourselves lip-locked. We spent the rest of the night just talking about what happened and whether we wanted to pursue anything romantically. After about a week, we decided to start dating, promising each other it wouldn't effect our friendship if it didn't go anywhere. A month later - after receiving blessings from friends and family - we were engaged. A year later - on October 29, 1994, we were married. We've had our ups and downs - every marriage does - but our wedding still feels like it happened just yesterday.
My wife and I love each other unconditionally. We were best friends, first, and will always remain so. She loves my hair, and, despite hating the fact that it hides what she lovingly describes as a "beautiful face", let me grow my beard as thanks for being her caregiver (a medical condition rendered her homebound and siabled seven years ago.).
One of the single most important aspects of any marriage is open, honest communication, and the willingness to accept each other for who they are, not who you want them to be. Too often, couples marry with high expectations of what their life will be like as husband and wife, only to feel completely miserable when their vision of a "perfect" marriage winds up destroyed when reality sets in.
Your friend's fiance is living a fantasy she's trying to turn into reality by forcing your friend to conform to her vision of a "perfect" mate, and a "perfect" marriage. In other words, your friend has become little more than a pawn in his fiance's dilusion, and she's already tried using you as a tool to manipulate him.
You need only ask yourself one question at this point:
Do I care enough about my friend to help save him from a life of misery?
Just telling him what she tried to do, as far as getting you to cut his hair, should be enough to alert him to her true nature. If he's still willing to marry her, then he's got a lot bigger issues than even he's admitting to himself.
... not to mention very credible coming from someone who has invested the time and effort to make a relationship work.
Guys who give in to every petty little whim get absolutely walked over and treated like the doormat they've fashioned themselves into for the sake of a little "skin". My observation is that such guys also get cheated on as the manipulator becomes bored with her "project" after he relinquishes his backbone.
I think its better to remain unmarried than to have a partner who wants to mold you into whatever he or she wants. I know there is always pressure to marry in the family though. I argue with my dad because I told him I do not intend to marry and he seems to have a problem with that... I guess fathers tend to want to advance the gene pool (not like I care anyways)
If this woman is already doing things behind her boyfriend's back, what
does the future hold for him?
Uh oh...better think twice.
Asdis, Nyghtfall is giving you the best advice.
Some people can't be saved from themselves, but as a good friend you won't be kicking yourself for not speaking up. Stick to how the scary girlfriend asked you to con your friend. Don't mention anything else you see because he obviously is not picking up on what a lapdog he has become, he'd likely just defend her. Be prepared for him to choose his girl over you, at least in the short run.
If your friend Dave is taking in information the two biggest points to get across is that he needs to have a long engagement (increasing the chance he'll wake up before marriage) and to be in charge of his own birth control. Dave should not end up with a child by this manipulative harpy.
Elizabeth
I've lived that dream. After 11 years of marriage (it only felt longer!), my ex left me because I didn't make enough money. I changed everything she wanted me to, but it was never enough.
It won't make her happy! After this, she'll want to change something else. She tried to get you, HIS FRIEND, to decieve him! WARNING!! WARNING!!! DANGER, DANGER, DANGER!!!! (can he hear that?)
He needs to RUN, not walk away!!
Ditto. Sounds like a bad situation likely to get worse...obviously, she has some kind of ulterior motive going on.
I would tell him what she requested you do, and also tell him your honest feelings. I would also be prepared to lose a friend over it. The bringer of bad tidings is rarely thanked, even if they turn out to be right in the end.
Arrgh!
If she didn't want to be seen with a longhair, why did she go out with him in the first place? Was he intended as her wild-one-night-stand experience and, to her surprise, stuck around?
Drives me crazy!
Is it conceivable that someone would order fish and chips and then, after having eaten half the fries send it back to the kitchen requesting the fries then be substituted for side salad....then send the fish back in for the chicken breast....
Order what you want in life and if something arrives on your plate that you didn't really intend on ordering, send it back to the kitchen before you eat half of it! (It is nearing lunch, sorry for all the food analogy.)
Seriously, though, it seems your friend is quite serious -- he IS prepared to marry her.
If long hair is part of him, then perhaps he should present himself to her as she *thinks* she wants him to be and see if it really is what she hoped for.
(that said, all the ketchup and mustard in the world won't make sushi into a hamburger).
Are there any makeup artists around? Anyone who could convincingly hide his hair under a bald-cap and short-haired wig? (Like Long-haired wierd Al was able to do for his 'White and Nerdy' video.) Then dress him up in khakis and a sweater. give her what she think she wants and use it to see if she wants the illusion or the real man.
Wait..this is sounding way too much like a bad teen-comedrama, Sorry. Just got carried away there.
I am sorry for your friend. It seems he knows what he wants: her for a wife AND his long hair and style. Unfortunately, though, she wants neither his long hair nor sense of style (a large part of what make him him) and, as a result, either:
a) she'll miraculously change her mind (perhaps after a devious plot to fool her)
b) he'll choose her over his hair and stlye
c) he'll choose on principle not to alter who he is in order to please her by giving her the person she's imaginied him being (rather than who he is) -- sadly, though, wbychoosing this he will likley be seen to be choosing his hair over her (how selfish, vain and shallow!, they'll say) without anyone (save friends like you) paying attention to the fact the she had the cruel position of forcing him into this either/or choice scenario.
I would recommend C) on principle, but he may, in fact, like her so much (and who he is when around her) that the identity you his friends have associated with him is no longer as accurate a reflection of him as he feels she is -- he might prefer to choose her with him having short hair (with all that that entails) over him having whatever hair he wants, and paying the consequences thereof.
His choice might not be what you would think (or hope for).
I hope you are both at peace with whatever decision he (or she) makes.
Mr.Crow - the other Shawn
I think they need to have an open and honest discussion about what it means to both of them and go from there. Dave already knows she wants him to cut it if, as you say, she's been hinting about it. You might not have to "tell on her." Instead, the next time he brings up the topic of her pressuring/hinting about him getting a haircut suggest they get it out in the open. Better yet, the next time she asks you to cut it shorter without him knowing about it tell her to leave you out of it and deal with it like an adult. If he asks your opinion, by all means give it to him. But remember, you can't control what he does anymore than she can. Does he "belong" to this board? Has he ever heard of the 2 week rule? The anniversary is next Saturday right? That could be just the buffer he needs. RNS (Rust Never Sleeps)Bruce
This woman is obviously a control freak. I feel sorry for your friend, if he goes through with marrying her.=/
Hi Asdis,
Does Dave listen to you if you bring up that topic with him? If yes, you can address a few points explicitly. Matt Nyghtfall has raised some very important points, and ideally, Dave should read Matt's post if possible.
Normally, people who are so deeply infatuated as Dave, won't listen to warnings from outside. They will keep going until it's too late.
The good thing in this case, however, is that he will listen to you concerning matters of taste and style. You could explain a few things about style, and that he looks highly presentable and stylish (add other adjectives as applicable) with long hair, but that short hair would look a) boring, and b) totally out-of-character for him. If he says that he must cut it off for her, you ask him, how he would have reacted if his supervisor at work or his parents or his older brother/sister had asked that of him. If he says, "But that's different", just go on, say, "of course, it is different, but why whould you have refused a hair cut request from your parents / siblings / supervisors if hair isn't that important to you?" Remind / explain / ask him, what long hair has meant to him in the past, how it is a part of him.
And, you could explain to him that some women (I'm sure some men have the same fault with women, by the way) don't just take and love a man as he is, but try to take them as raw material and to mould him according to their taste. This kind of women does not trust that there are good men to be found in general, but that she needs to CREATE and MAKE them - they want to be in control, and the man is a toy for them.
You could also ask him whether he has ever thought about what the relationship will be like once they are past the initial infatuation, and you could mention that mutual respect and 100% ACCEPTANCE is a great predictor for a stable and fulfilling marriage. Tell him that men who cut off a part of their personality for their partner will be dumped after the honeymoon is over! Tell him, she's NOT in love with him as he is, but with some phantasy man she wants to create!
If possible, you could ask him to ask his GF whether she still would love and accept him, or if she felt rejected if he would not cut off his hair under (almost) any circumstances. Maybe the best thing is to urge David to discuss that issue with his GF openly and to see her reactions: "Would you still want to marry me if you knew that you had sworn an oath to ALWAYS keep my hair long, and that I intend to keep that oath?" Or would even that question mean to risk the relationship?"
Tell him, men who cut off their hair and/or their personality for their spouses, have a much higher than average divorce rate!
I wish all the best to Dave (and to you), and that he doesn't get into something that will make him unhappy in the long run. This whole thing is not about hair any more, this is about being happy in general...
All the best, and, keep us posted.
Hans-Uwe
Asdis.
Stop feeling awful.
It brings me down.
Do smething.
As a Celtic Witch, you have authority to take action, and you have done so. You know what needs to be done. If you are short on concxrete moves, I can suggest several.
Read Judges 13:1 - 16:31.
As a transatlantic Wizard, I will back you up.
James
Actually, you should ask your friend Dave to go to this hyperboard. He should read these replies himself, "directly from the horse's mouth". It takes a hell of a lot of years to grow one's hair to butt-length. Does he really want to cut it all off in a single swipe (that will take less than probably a minute to make her "happy")??
I impulsively cut my waist-length hair off in Y2K. I had that hair for 9 years; but it only took a few minutes to see it all go away... I'll admit it: I deeply, deeply regretted that decision, and even cried a LOT!! But, at least in my case I only had myself to blame. I realize not "everyone" regrets cutting off their long hair; but cutting it when under pressure from someone ELSE not only is fertile soil for deep regret, but also leaves him wide-open to become totally enraged AT HER for pressuring him to do so...
If he marries this witch (I'd like to use another word)... Well, let's just say that I don't predict "many years" of "happiness' for their future!!
- Ken in San Francisco
Spot-on, Ken.
And, you are right, the word "witch" designates female dignitaries in the traditional Celtic religion, to which Asdis and Caledonian seem to belong - i.e., the good people, in the context at hand.
Maybe members of different religions should pray for Dave, that he may make good choices...
In case you don't want to denigrate female dogs, why not use the word "rat" or "snake"? But then, we may need to apologize to those animals - so, how about using "bastard" for this destructive Delilah-type woman? ;-)
Best wishes,
Hans-Uwe
Fantastic responses, thanks guys!!!
Basically you've all told me what I already knew inside, this woman is a terrible mistake for my mate and it's more than just how he looks, as you have said, is about starting off together on the right foot. No-one in this world should settle for someone who isnt suited at all. Dave is so keen to have the home and kids that he's settling (imo).
On Sunday I took him shopping and we had a great afternoon. I got him some really nice clothes (full outfit; coat, black trousers, classy shirt and i even got him to buy plain black shoes (and underwear what a laugh) no tie though he hates them), everything is plain but dressy. I got him dressed up (back at mine), put his hair in a simple pony tail and he looked great. He even addmited he looked good (which is amazing because no-one has ever seen him in proper clothes before lol) and he was happy.
I had a discussion about 'her' (treading very carefully) and he even told me that he knows no-one likes her. The hair subject came up (which was when I said do a ponytail) and he even said he doesnt understand why she wanted a rocker and now wants mr bland. It doesnt make sense. So I know he's thinking aout things. Which is good.
"Do I care enough about my friend to help save him from a life of misery?" answer is - yes I do!!
I've tried my best, been honest, been supportive and he knows we're all here for him, but he's also a big boy and has to live his own life. All I can do is wait and see.
Thanks for your answers, you're brilliant :)
It brings to mind a friend of mine. He didn't have long hair, but other interesting quirks. He liked to set off small explosions in his back garden, and owned two very unusual vehicles. One was a chop with no generator and with a car battery in it. The other was an old London taxi cab (no longer used as a cab) that had an ejector seat (not working!) as the front passenger seat.
No sooner had he taken up with a particular woman who shall remain nameless, and she talked him into selling the cab and buying a 4-door family car. Some women are like that. They want to change us. As you say, if they want Mr Bland then why not date someone like that to begin with? I don't get it either.
women are weird (mostly lol)
p.s. Celtic Witch????
(who told??? lol)