new thread
I was at speed school today, a spring running program my school's (American) Football team is supposed to attend unless their in some other sport. Well, at the end of it, while i was changing, some older members of the team told me that I couldn't have long hair and stay on the team. I told them that I know that the coaches are a bunch of prejudice jacka$$es and we've been through this already. Anyway, they continued saying that if you show up on the field with longhair for jv, the team I'll be on this year, or varsity that one of the coaches will take some clippers and cut your hair right there. I'm pretty sure it is illegal to do that. What do you think?
Also, I'm thinking about buying a skirt and wearing it to school to see if that'll get me into any trouble. Please note, I'm not trying to get into trouble, I just won't to see how prejudice the teachers at my school are. Any opinions on wether or not I should try this?
They don't have the right to clip your hair, like the boys threatened.
But I don't advise wearing a skirt. I don't think it's ever a good idea to do something solely out of spite.
It wouldnt be solely out of spite. It was the only way I could/ can think of to prove how prejudice my school is. Wearing a skirt, they can't say anything about safety concerns since females can wear them... then again I guess the same thing can be said about long hair. anyway, thanks for you opinion.
It is illegal for them to cut your hair without your permission and if they try that you can sue them. Maybe that will scare them off. I guess I was lucky in high school, when I first started to grow my hair out I was on the track team and the head coach didnt particularly like it but he didnt stop me growing it. He was the kind of guy that could have been a drill sergeant. I remember him saying when I was a senior that next year he would start to enforce a stricter hair policy, glad I didnt have to deal with that.
Good Luck
Del
I've brought up various legel points to the school and this issue won't blow over. I have the ACLU and GPAC backing me and the last time I talked with them they said it would be this summer before the season begins. I'm hoping the school folds before then.
Firstly, report this to a person of authority. Like a principal or athletic director. Forcibly cutting a student's hair like that is against some rule, just like you cannot hit a kid or abuse a kid. The coaches might be wild and might think about something like that but principals and athletic directors must have a better head on their shoulders because an infraction like this might cost jobs and participation in conferences and cost the school fines. They will most likely talk to the coaches and the team.
What you might have to do is control your hair while playing (hair ties, bandannas, etc.) because of a danger. There are precedents for being able to keep long hair and perform certain jobs (that fall under sexual harassment laws actually....basically forcing a person to permanently change appearance for the job). Others might have links and articles to show you. It really is no different than a person in a grocery store to have to have to tie his hair back while on job.
As for the skirt, make sure there is nothing in a dress code. There might be. I would suggest trying a "skirt" that is normally worn by men (kilts, cilts, sarong, etc.). Obviously short bright pink frilly garments with kick-pleats might be going a little too far. But surely, the men's kilt, properly sized and properly worn should not be restricted in the least.
I've talked to the athletic director, principal next year, about the rule that hair has to be short. they refuse to back down. I've written letters to the congress, senate, everybody that I know who has any power in Illinois. Also, this isn't just a team rule, even though they say it is, because every male athletic team requires that males have short hair. If ya'll want, I took notes on those conversations and I'll type it up for ya'll to look at.
All that got me was a long lecture on breaking the chain of command. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the First ammendments to the Constitution gives people the right to write to their representatives.
Also, in my last post on this board, I mentioned one of the coaches hitting a kid. Their was a rumor that he was gonna be fired for it, and apparently I jumped the gun a bit. It turns out he was only supposed to take a week long paid leave!
Nothing is in the dress code about it, but there is nothing in the dress code about long hair either. Nor is there anything in the athletic handbook about it either. They DO have a Secret handbook which is where they found an Old rule that gives the head coach the right to make any decision with regaurds to hair.
Thanks
There are supposedly links to places on the internet where there are precedents for court cases. Depending on your age and your school and other factors, these might help or not.
http://www.choisser.com/longhair/resources.html is one such site. Can anyone else suggest another site.
Anyway, if you would like, perhaps some of us fellow longhairs could write letters to the school or to congressmen? I'd be willing to and others might be up for it.
Of course, the easy way to keep your hair is to not play the sport. Or, if you decide to play the sport, you could put your hair under a bandanna and see if a coach says anything; if it is not flowing and blowing in the wind, he might let it go. If he presses the issue, walk off of the field if you do not feel comfortable. If he says you need to cut hair in order to play, the cutting of the hair needs to be initiated by you in a place of your choosing. Just don't allow the coach to abuse you by holding you down and applying the clippers himself.
Ya, I was advised to go the easy way when I started petitioning the school last August, didn't happen. I can't wear a bandana as that is against the schools dress code. I've worn hair nets, ponytails put at the top of my head, every thing I could think that might change his mind but they still say no.
Funny thing is I asked the caoches for boys tennis and basketball if I could play and he said no. When I asked why the girls got to play with long hair and the guys didn't he first said "They wear their hair up Like your wearing yours now" I had been wearing my hair in a tight ponytail when I went to see him. He also said "they wear their hair up in ribbons" I told him I'd wear ribbons in my hair if they'd let me play. he said NO. He then said that Girls and guys are apples and oranges the same thing every other coach in the school has said to me.. sorry for ranting.
I've talked to the Congressman and One even talked to the school. the ones I talked to said they can't do anything about it and the one that talked to the school well that didn't help. All that got me was a lecture on breaking the "chain of command." A LONG lecture by the one of the people I hate most. Please note that this chain of command ends with talking to the school board and having them pick an "Un-biased" person to decide if the school wins or the individual. the student Will always lose in this scenario.
Ya, maybe letters from others might help if they were wrote to the school itself. But if anyone does please keep them short. that way when I'm called out of class and down to the office I don't have to listen to them talk for very long. And please just let them be asking/ telling them to demolish this so called rule. Even without my name mentioned in there, they'll know I have some connection with it.
I'll check out that link thanks.
sorry my post is so long.
Dress codes fare better under present-day judicial scrutiny than do hair codes, because clothing can be changed at the schoolhouse door. Hair cannot be. Clothing changes are thus seen as less intrusive. Except in Texas, most higher state court decisions in recent years have prohibited public school student hair codes. Not all states' courts have addressed the issue though, although in that case courts often look to what other states have done for guidance. They aren't held to follow that lead, though.
Federal cases have mostly followed that reasoning in employment cases. It has not been as strictly followed in student cases. There is a distinction. In California it is a big distinction; schools cannot dictate student hair length, but they can dictate teacher hair length because teachers are employees. Except for uniformed services like police, though, public employment discrimination on the basis of hair length is no longer common. Most employee discrimination now occurs in the private sector.
That is inappropriate because you are NOT AN EMPLOYEE. You are a citizen and you have every right to talk to your congressman, to your mayor, and to your school board! Employees DO often have policies at work requiring they go up through a chain of command. In suggesting that applies to you, they are mistaken!
Disciplining you for political activities of others, or for your own political activities off campus, is inappropriate. If they do that, rejoice, because they are just giving you more for you to sue them over. If you point that out, I'd bet that behavior will stop pronto.
New ground is also being dealt with when it comes to web sites. Students have posted really nasty stuff on their personal off-campus web sites, particularly untrue stuff about other students and the school's teachers, and this can actually be disruptive at school. Courts haven't dealt thoroughly with this issue, but your contacting public officials is seen as being on the "good side" of exercising the First Amendment - the right to petition officials for grievances is right in there. You're likely on very solid ground when you do so.
Good luck man,
Bill
Thats what I thought when I wrote to them. Just yesturday I borrowed one of the schools Civics books from one of my teachers and it told me that to. But apparently my school doesn't care much for student rights.
I really don't think that it would do any good to bring up legal points. I've told them that there are legal issues but they pretty much just don't care. No matter what I do they seem to think I'm just bluffing and that I won't try anything else. Thats why I haven't bothered to tell them about the ACLU.
I asked one of my teachers who also teaches Civics about that and yesturday and he told that it was perfectly in my rights to right to whomever I pleased. When he asked What I wanted to know for, I replied "I plead the Fifth." He just laughed at that. The school will TEACH it, they just won't listen to it.
Thanks, I'm gonna need it.
If you are a minor it would be illegal for them to do it without your parents permissions. If you are 18 or older then it would be illegal for them to do it without your permission.
I don't think wearing a skirt is going to help your cause lupi. Yes it will strike up prejudices and angers and insecurities of all sorts among the staff and students, but you are also making yourself a target for that anger. what do you hope to gain by seeing how prejudice they are? you may think that you aren't doing it out of spite but you are. Unless you can say that you want to wear a skirt or dress in an alternative way and wear your hair how choose and feel that THIS IS HOW I WANT TO LOOK AND LIVE MY LIFE, if you are doing this for any reason other than that, it will more than like be out of spite or some form of it. I wish you the best of luck in making good choices Lupi.
Life is like holding a poker hand. You only have so many cards to play. I would not waste yours on the skirt, since that means nothing to you.
As for your hair, make it clear to the admininstration, in writing, that you know it is unlawful for them to touch your hair and that this has been threatened. And that they will be the subject of both civil and criminal complaints if anything happens, and that includes the administration and members of the school board. Also point out that should the violence occur from students due to administration or faculty suggestion or acquiescence, that they will also get sued. As a student, you are entitled to a "safe school", a learning environment free from threats and physical violence.
Good luck.
Bill
Narrow minded Illinois. You could not pay me to move back there. What part are you from? I grew up in LeSalle / Preu and good memories of that place are a rarity. I moved to the Hampton Roads area in 93 and never regretted it. I was mostly tormented and bullied when I grew up there. My recommendation. GET THE H. OUT OF THERE!!! LOL Seriously, I would look into going to college out of state when you graduate high school.
The above is not meant to offend anyone from or living in Illinois. I am sure Chicago is more civilized the that mound of cow S. where I grew up at.
I live in Granite City and your right it sucks! I'm leaving the city as soon as I graduate. I'd like to go to California for a year or two and then decide what I want to do from there.
Nobody bullies me though. I'm a large person from the west side of the town. (west side- poor, most problems occur here, fights, some murders, mini-gangs, etc.) at 5'4' 230lbs and tenth in school for weight lifting, nobody wants to mess with me.
The high school is on the east side... bunch of stuck-up rich pricks!
The more I read on this thread, the more happy I feel having left that horrid place. At least you have your head in the right place and made up your mind to get out of there.
Luckily this will be a short lived part of your life. You will go on to do better things and those losers that put you down will probably never accomplish a thing.
We are all poling for you. :-)
It is illegal to discriminate but the coaches always can say you didnt make the team because of ... excuse. Is being in football the ticket you are hoping to get into college with a scholarship> If it is then you may want to cut it. If it is just for fun then keep it long and see what happens. Dressing in a skirt will add problems. The other option you have is since you were threatened then you may want to make a police report and if they pursue cutting your hair have them arrested. Maybe if you are very strong in your conviction talk to your parents hire a lawyer and if you get cut pursue action against the school.
Rich
Since everyones opinion seems that I shouldn't wear the skirt I guess I won't... I'm actually goeing for academic scholarships not athletic so ya footballs just something for me to do. My family can't afford a lawyer on our own, but ACLU and GPAC have both said that they are on my side.
aclu is very helpful go for it!!! Also make sure before you leave w
school you dont have a hidd3en note as a tro8ublemaker . I know from my cousin teachers can make remarks for example like possible dyslexic or troublemaker on your permanent record
Well, I've never broken any rule in school, though I have been challenging this one about long hair and athletics. they might say I have an attendence problem though. I have a bad case of depression that, if I don't take/ run out of my medicine for, causes intense physical pain to the point that I can hardly move. When that happens i usually don't go to school. I've just been telling my teachers I get throat infections very often.
I guess I might want to check out what my teachers have to say about me...
This is insanity. I can´t belive that people can be so wasted in their brains that they go around and think that men can´t have long hair.
And yeah, this must be illegal. Anyways, if he comes walking with a pair of scissors, tell him to shove it up his ass.
Forcibly cutting your hair is both a criminal offence, although the name varies, but assault and battery in common law, and also a tort, which means a civil cause of action, IOW you can sue them as well, usually after they are convicted of the criminal offence.
OTOH, if they just want to kick you off the team, they probably can.
Please note that I am not a lawyer, but I beleive this to be a correct statement of the law in common law jurisdictions. OTOH, Bill is a lawyer, so whatever he says I would beleive it.
If you like, it's up to you.
Neither of us are practicing attorneys in your jurisdiction. Elektros is a patent attorney and I am retired from the Illinois bar. Law is something that varies locally, and most lawyers are not up on most fields but just the ones they're interested in. So you need to get advice from a lawyer practicing in your own jurisdiction who is also up on civil rights law.
Elektros and I have both paid considerable attention to hair discrimination cases, so what we say on the board here is generally the case, but all-important local nuances in the law matter if you're actually going to battle.
If your battle is with a governmental agency the ACLU will take interest, but they have no interest if the discriminator is a private party or organization. Those who need help with private cases must turn to private foundations which take civil rights cases. Most of them specialize in one aspect of discrimination such as race, sex, LGBT, disability, religion, etc., and they may need to see a longhair's case as coming under their cause of concern before they will help him out.
Be aware that legal precendents are only set by HIGHER court opinions, and few long hair cases ever get that high in the judicial food chain, so "how a case will turn out" is not always clear.
Bill
The ACLU have talked with me and are interested. It's with the Youth something division. they said that stuff like this causes teens to become depressed, (which I am and I even have to take pills for it, well since this battle with the school began. I also developed an ulcer from it, more pills for it...), to use drugs, to join gangs, etc...
I've looked and I haven't been able to find a civil rights attorney in my area of Illinois. I've looked through the phonebook repeatedly and haven't found one. Even though I doubt my family would be able to afford one anyway.
thanks.
Pardon me, but I don't understand what you mean when you say "Bill's admitted in the right state! N/T".
Oh, he means that when I was practicing law it was in your state. That was in the 1970s, though, and a lot of time has gone by since then, and also, I'm retired (not paying annual fees) so I'm legally not a lawyer there anymore.
Of course I've got the background to understand what I hear about, and I've been on this site for the last ten years. We tend to hear about many of the hair cases on MLHH, and I often go and read those court decisions. I can't be anyone's lawyer, but I can give them a pretty good idea of what lies ahead if they get in so deep that they have to get one.
Bill
There's a lot of talk of the legalities surrounding your battle, but truthfully, the courts seldom resolve things when it comes to students, because a final court resolution takes a few years and by then the student will have graduated. So let me comment on the SOCIAL issues, because they're important and they haven't been covered much in this thread. First, the pieces to the puzzle....
1. A lawyer friend of mine once told me his firm never seats longhairs on juries "because longhaired men think for themselves", and the firm's lawyers don't want that.
2. Men's hair disputes are almost always about POWER, not about fashion preferences. To win the battle you are best off going for the jugular - by tackling head-on the power issues.
3. The education system is full of power freaks. Little kids who have a power-freak personality wanna grow up to be teachers, because they see teachers bossing people around all day, and the major power freaks hope someday to be a big-kahuna principal. Not all educators are like that, but enough are that it taints the social environment of the profession. Teachers are really treated like dirt. They get little of the respect that just about every other adult gets at work. Schools won't let them make phone calls at work. Schools make they pay for stuff out of their own pocket that any other employer would provide. Teachers have to take work home such as grading papers, and they have to do that work on their own time. Meanwhile the kids are all fighting each other, and in confrontations with parents "political correctness" has run amok. School is a lot like jail - it is full of people who would really rather be somewhere else, and who don't really want to be with each other. Those there don't really get along that well with each other, and the way to isolate oneself from everyone else's "being in your face" is to fight for personal power.
4. Coaches and scoutmasters are the most conservative among adults who work with kids. Many of them come from military backgrounds, and they groove on the concept of uniforms and everyone looking alike. They often see their work as grooming kids to be fodder for the army. Armies do not want longhairs around because longhairs think for themselves (see #1 above).
5. Athletic teams on paper are just there for the development of the students on the team, but they are seen as a public-relations arm of the school by many administrators. Schools can't legally spend money on PR so this is a myth, but coaches and administrators live the fantasy. It's not wholly unfounded since members of the community attend athletic events and get positive views of the school, and then vote 'yes' on bond issues, which gives the school's educators more power. If you hear the expression that "you are representing the school", that means this myth is in their minds. Of course you are not the school's "representative". Representatives can act on behalf of who they are representing. If you were the school's representative, your first act would be to sign a paper on behalf of the school abolishing the hair policy. You are no more the school's representative, legally, than I was the National Park Service's representative when I climbed Half Dome. You are legally just a citizen taking advantage of a recreational opportunity. Citizens have a right to equal treatment.
6. Athletic programs cost a lot of money and benefit few students. They are also not seen as "academic". This puts the coaches under a lot of pressure to live the PR myth to enhance their shaky power position - maintaining their own stature in the power structure dictates that the team "looks good", and that to them means "wins games" and "looks pretty". "Pretty" to military types is the military look....
So you have stumbled into a major friction point for power squabbles among some of society's greatest power freaks.
This is not a new battle. It has been going on for years. The classic case was that of Lynyrd Skynyrd. As high school students the band's members were hassled about their hair by their coach Leonard Skinner, so to irritate him they named their band after him. Then they became famous and became a conservative educator's greatest nightmare: His name was soon scrawled on concert posters worldwide, misspelled, along with photos of several grinning, very happy LONGHAIRS.
There is also a dark side to this battle. What came down at Columbine was the culmination of a long-running squabble between the school's jocks and some of its freaks. The administration had been bestowing all of its favors upon the jock crowd, and the students discriminated against had just "had enough".
So where does this leave you? Well, the atmosphere at Columbine was not exactly healthy. Perhaps an athletic program at your school that was inclusive of all students would get more participation and support, and this would enhance the coach's position, not diminish it as he fears. Name some longhaired professional athletes and point out that students in some of the school's social groups look up to them, and seeing longhaired athletes and more diversity in general on school teams may get more kids into team sports. Go for the power issues. You are dealing with power freaks, and power to them is all that matters.
Good luck man,
Bill
Ya, They've made school like that for me. My grades have even dropped from staraight A's down to B's and even a C this past year
The only reason the school has been giving me about not letting longhairs play is that we represent the school. (Well since I've come up with several ways that the safety issue wouldn't work.) They said something about that since the younger siblings of other players come to see the game. They also said long haired guys would make the school look bad. I talked to the schools we play against and they were completly appalled by the rule.
You can say that again...
Man, I wish i could come up with something like that for Matt Martin.
Not at our school either....
I've tried that, I thought it was a good idea at the time. then the Athletic Director brought up half my list before I could.
Ya, and they're really poor sports when someone challenges them... Imagine that.
Thanks again man.
You seem to have a lot of good advice.
You hit the nail on the head. With them it's not about sportsmanship. It's about winning. [smirk]
Bill