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"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him"
Didn't Jesus have long hair?
and why is it a shame for a man to have long hair?
Beats me. Biblical I guess - best ignore all that and work stuff out for yourself I say
This is something that, sadly, many Christians make the mistake of.
They don't read things like this in the Bible in CONTEXT.
This article will explain it better than I ever could.
http://www.metalforjesus.org/longhair.html
Hey, Mr. Dizzler,
Once again, thank you for posting that link to Johannes Jonsonn's piece on the Apostle Paul's letter to the Corinthians! For a quick reference, I've attached YOUR link to that exact SAME link below. Thanks again, Peg!
Yours for continuing enlightenment and longhaired camaraderie,
Quenyan the Elven Scholar Guy (+:-)}
Hey Morbius, excellent question!
Tristan? Oh, Tristan? You have the answer, don'tcha? I know it's in here somewhere already, but it's something to do with what Saul of Tarsus, a Jew, who converted to Christ's teachings and was "reborn" as the apostle Paul, and had this epiphany on the road to Ephesus. He was an evangelist who ministered largely to the Roman troops, still mostly polytheistic. I dunno. Tristan?
Yours for religious tolerance and longhaired camaraderie,
Quenyan (+;-)}
The key to this passage is the phrase "nature itself" and what it means.
Note that Paul is not quoting Jesus, or any of his apostles or disciples. What has been widely discussed and understood is that "nature itself" means what is natural or normal in that place for that day and time, specifically talking to the Corinthians.
Many of the teachings of Jesus went against what was normal or natural for that day and time. Those who use this passage as ammunition against long hair are putting words into Christ's mouth that don't belong there. It's very simple; if Christ would have said this, Paul would have said "Doth not Jesus teach you . . . ." as he does in so many other places.
He may have. No one can be sure.
It isn't unless you let others convince you it is.
Big George
A careful examination of nature finds that human male hair can grow as long as human female hair. Hair length is not a function of natural sexual dimorphism as are beards, breasts, and the shape of genitalia. Shame is a cultural concept used to control people. Life is too short to follow the words found in some old book that is full of contradictions and human opinions. And that is just my opinion. ;) http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/
I don't know. I really don't care. Why should it matter? Besides, none of the sayings attributed to the man mention the appropriate length of hair for men or women. Presumably, Jesus was a Jew and followed the Torah.
It is simply a cultural prejudice, nothing more. Do you feel ashamed of long hair? I don't.
anotherDavid
Completely agree.
Using it to control people then just as they are now.
The bible was written by people not god.
If their is a god, he/she or it is a presence that has no governing over how the world and/or universe works, as we see in everyday life tragedies.
. . . DaPs, and anyone else interested, you might wanna have a look-see at the attached link. That'll show how some of us see the world and/or universe actually DOES work. It isn't Christian, although, leaning more towards the Goth nomenclature of music nowadays my(s)elf, a Christian band, SAVIOUR MACHINE, have done an excellent job depicting the Book of Revelation as a theatrically-indulgent stage show . . . but, yo, yo! Go to the polytheistic link below, where I'm a member under my full name. Enjoy!
Yours for the ever-unfolding Mystery AND longhaired camaraderie,
Quenyan (+:-)}
But, as always, this ultimately becomes little more than a battle of opinions. We may see truths (the world is currently round, for example), but we do not, and I might go so far as to say cannot, know Truths.
At any rate, you said that your link shows how the universe DOES work, whereas the link itself has the word "believe" in it, rendering it not a fact, but an opinion.
Good site, though. I've been to WitchVox in the past to read some of the articles.
Peace
I'm an Atheist on the most part, and perhaps slightly agnostic about religion and god in general. But I would never say that my beliefs are any more correct than yours. Ultimately everything we know, think, or see is interpreted by our brain, and since there is no such thing as a perfect brain, then all of our views are imperfect, and we in fact cannot know for sure. So, especially with matters concerning religion and god, when someone talks as if they actually KNOW when they can only guess, it genuinely disgusts me.
So, when you say the bible is written by people and not god, then I would tend to agree. Most historians who study the subject will tell you that the first five books were written by four different sources, evident in their different writting styles and sometimes differing views. But, if you look at any intelligent man over his lifetime, his opinions and views will change quite drastically throughout. And so we can assume that the Bible, being a large work, could have been written over time by a single entity. Although god is a very unlikely contender, since you would assume that god, being the ultimate being, would have the ultimate, and hence neverchanging opinion :)
And yes, all religions, naturally control people. They tell you not to murder (most religions do), to not steal, etc. Therefore they control you and your actions. Organised religions take it further and often have vested political interests. For example, I respect Christianity, but I hate the Vatican and most popes throughout history. Those who perpetrated Inquisitions, expelled Jews. Or those that did not act during World War II, or by some accounts even cooperated with the Nazis. They shouldn't have the powers that they have. They are only human, and not exactly different from politicians. For example, the current pope went to South America to tell youths there that they shouldn't use condoms. As if the fact that mortality rates from Aids in South Africa weren't already incredibly high, now they shouldn't protect themselves?
And lastly, since I've done too much ranting by now. You seem to assume that god, if it exists, would be Bevenvolent, or more commonly described as Omnibenevolent. What if he/she isn't? That should give you food for thought.
And doth not it say something in the holy "book of Ken" on this? Let us pray that His loving longhairs who doth need to have their eyes openned and their ears unstopped wilt click on the sacred link...
From a logical standpoint, the whole thing is absurd. For one, they failed to define "long." "Long" can range from a few inches of hair to floor-length locks. Since Corinthians gives no definition whatsovever of how long "long" is, it can be swept aside as too vague to be followed.
And I'm not sure how Nature can teach me that long hair is shameful, when Nature is what allows me to grow that hair in the first place.
Please follow the links the others posted. They're quite useful.
Peace
Corinthians was written by Paul while he was preaching in the city of Corinth in southern Greece, Peloponnesis. Apparently, in Corinth, male prostitutes who were impersonating women grew their hair long; female prostitutes who were impersonating men cut their hair short. Paul was preaching to these people as well as perhaps other men of the area. Corinth is located near the location of ancient Sparta, and it was also the custom of men from the days when Sparta had hegemony over Greece to wear long hair for the warrior, statesman, etc. Either way, for Paul, long hair was a reminder of the pagan past at odds with his Christian teachings and a reminder of shamefulness of prostitution in regards to the Christian view of it. Christianity's view on sexual mores was so far different than the traditions of many formerly pagan nations that only by denigrating the trappings of the customs as well as the customs themselves could Christianizing agents such as Paul hope to succeed in his mission.
But, also remember that shame and sin are not the same. There are no tin-types or photos of Jesus himself for us to look at, so we really can't know how he chose to wear his hair.
Mostly it means that Paul was a Roman, and they started this whole short hair fashion in the first place. Men and women have the same hair length in nature, and that is as much a cast iron fact as the fact that I'm sitting here typing this, so I know that he's making a false statement just as surely as some people 'know' that the bible is the word of God. Many Christians don't actually believe that everything in the Bible is true anyway, which is just as well, given the fact that it contradicts itself so much.
Try looking here for a more sane way to live your life. It's all here.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/
Isn't it the st. Peter's phrase, which was discussed here as an attempt to look down on the Sparta custom of young men to have long hair?
Anyway, hair length has nothing to do with personal spirituality, it is just a historical prejudice. Religion is not free of these anachronisms, so nowadays we shouldn't put any religion as an obstacle between us and God. If you have any problem with that prhase, then be sure the God doesn't care about a hair.
If any preacher man tells you that long hair is a sin...he's dead WRONG.
"Shame" is NOT the same as a sin. Let me remind you that it was
also considered a "shame" for a Jewish" man to shave off his BEARD! Yes remind anyone who uses that quote that it was indeed a SHAME for a man to remove his beard.
King David sent some of his men into hidding when the enemy shaved off
their beards because it was a SHAME for them to be seen in public without a beard.
You cannot get around that one. If any religious person believes that long
hair on a man is a "shame" then they must also believe that
removing a BEARD is a shame. BOTH statements are in the Bible.
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS:
1. What Paul said back then applied to a specific audience and
for a specific reason. That is the "long hair" in question was in ADDITION to some other fact.
2. Paul does NOT say: "Doth not God teach..."
No because long hair is NOT condemned in the Bible.
3. Nature teaches us that: IF a man doth not cut his hair with implements of steel,
his hair will grow LONG. Surprise?
*According to the bet research available, Ancient Jewish men wore their hair almost shoulder-length
with longer braided tails that were kept rolled up under their turbans.
People who say: "Well, it was the Roman custom to wear short hair" cannot apply
that to the Jewish men who did not want to look like their Roan counterparts...i.e. who wants to look like the enemy.
AMEN
* According to the best research available, many Ancient Jewish men had longish hair
that was braided into a tail and kept under a turban.
The actual 'style' was about shoulder-length (or almost shoulder-length) with a longer. braided tail.
Jewish men did NOT look (or even want to look) like their Roman counterparts.
What does it mean? Exactly???
It means that the concept remains alive and well- that some folks can perch themselves on bully pulpits and pretend to be in a position of micro-managing others' lives. They cherry-pick the scripture in an attempt to "prove" that something as superficial as the length of a guy's hair can be an accurate indicator of his spiritual content.
As in most cases where a person is public in their criticism of people they do not know, the true agenda is less about uncovering flaws in others and more about convincing those who read or hear their words, as well as themselves, that they are somehow better than everyone else.
It isn't far from a school yard insult where a bully is merely expressing his self-doubt and the only way to build his own image is to tear down someone else's.
Please pardon the lady who is a newbie, been lurking a few weeks now, and I just HAD to reply.
It means that Paul, Apostle to the Church of Corinth, was giving instructions particular to the Corinthians, that would separate them from the secular (and very much contrary to life in Christ) ways and lifestyles of those around them. it did not apply to the universal Church then, and it doesn't apply today.
Jesus may have been an Essene. John the Baptist, and his followers (who later followed Jesus) John and James, were said to have also been Essenes. Adherants of this sect wore a long, loosely bound ponytail. The Shroud of Turin (If believed to be Christ's burial garment) clearly shows a man with quite long hair, bound loosely in the back. Artists over the centuries have always depicted Jesus as having long hair, SOMETHING must have inspired them. The Apostle John is usually depicted as a youth of great beauty, with long hair.
It wasn't for King David's son Absalom.
2 Samuel: 14:25Now in all Israel there was none to be so much praised as Absalom for his beauty: from the sole of his foot even to the crown of his head there was no blemish in him. 14:26And when he cut the hair of his head (now it was at every year's end that he cut it; because it was heavy on him, therefore he cut it); he weighed the hair of his head at two hundred shekels, after the king's weight.
From the Jewish Histories by Josephus, Chapter 8 Paragraph 5; ...for he still surpassed and excelled all men in the tallness of his body, and was more eminent [in a fine appearance] than those that dieted the most luxuriously; and indeed such was the thickness of the hair of his head, that it was with difficulty that he was polled every eighth day; and his hair weighed two hundred shekels (15) which are five pounds.
Absalom was known for his physical beauty, and his long thick hair was part of it.
Finally: People will twist scripture any way they want. Fundamentalists especially, are noted for very narrow (and biased) interpretations of the Bible. The clean-cut clean-shaven look is no more correct and proper than long hair and facial hair. Jesus was all about overlooking the externals. (Didn't He give those Pharisees a hard time about rituals?) He's more interested in what's in hearts. It's how you LIVE, not how you LOOK!
So, what does it mean, you ask? It means nothing unless you happen to be living in the time of Paul, and a member of the Corinth Church. As to your hair; let it grow, let it grow, let it grow... or not if you so desire.
Peace out!
Carol
PS If you can create board 'stickies', I get the impression this might be one, so as to avoid repeats of questions surrounding this often misinterpreted scripture passage.
I just look at it this way. For the believers as well as non believers Nature is just too perfect and beyond our comprehension. If nature meant for us NOT to have long hair she would have seen to it that we didn't have it. "If" God is responsible for nature which would have to be the case.........at least as well as I can possibly think, then both are right. For whatever reason, there IS a reason that we are suppose to have long hair.
To me, it means only someone else's irrelevant opinion which I disagree with. I have no patience with those who wish to dictate how others should live.
Stormy
I'm going to post this one more time--just so no one misses it.
Assuming you are believer in God's Word, THIS is your answer. The verse Morbius quoted is constantly taken out of context, and this website will explain why.
Someday I hope that no one will ever have to question this again--but sadly, that may never happen. Until then, everyone here should learn the true answer!!
http://www.metalforjesus.org/longhair.html