new thread
I have finally decided what I will do with my current situation. The rules state for the training academy for Corrections in MI that hair can be worn long but must be tied up in a bun secured with bobby pins that match your natural hair color, FOR a female canidate. The policy does not get too specific on men, it says only that hair can't be shown hanging over the shirt collar. So I am going to go in there and wear my hair in a bun with black bobby pins to match my hair color. I have no idea how they will react to do this. I am told by another officer 5 years ago a Native American gentleman did this same thing claiming sex based discrimination and refusing to cut his hair due to cultural beliefs. They gave him some hell but eventually they grew tired of hassling him and just let him do it. No one has tried it since then. So there is kind of a precedence for this. So please wish me luck. It would be great to win another victory for us longhairs!
I remember reading a news article that showed a longhaired cop and he said the only restriction for him was that he have in a bun at all times. Im not sure what state this was though.
AFAIK that is the rule for the NYPD. That's the only one like that I know of.
With all due respect you should have short hair as a cop. What if a perp grabs you by the hair? What will you do? It's an unnecessary hazard to you and possibly other officers too.
It's like the army. There is a reason for cutting hair; it is more practical and efficient.
"With all due respect you should have short hair as a cop. What if a perp grabs you by the hair? What will you do? It's an unnecessary hazard to you and possibly other officers too.
It's like the army. There is a reason for cutting hair; it is more practical and efficient."
I see what you're saying, but what then explains the Germanic tribes(and other societie with hlonghaired males) in Europe thousands of yrs ago, who were highly victorious in battles? For godsake, they sacked Rome. The long hair obviously didn't inhibit them.
Years ago I was constantly being refused employment because they had dress codes and I had long hair and beard.
I finally started defending myself and filed discrimination complaints.
I got fairly far in Wisconsin. Several cases were settled totaling thousands of dollars.
In Madison, Wisconsin, US, they have a several protected classes
to possibly bring a hair discrimination complaint under:
-physical appearance
-creed or religion
-sex
-political belief
-ancestry/ national origin
Several religious beliefs and sects, including those who affirm nature and naturalness, support having long hair.
To bring a complaint, you'd have to show you had a 'sincere and genuine religious belief.' - such as a letter or affidavit from someone else who knows you. The employer must make a reasonable accommodation or else show "undo hardship."
If you work around food, wearing a hairnet or beard-net is possible.
Sex discrimination legal claims are more complicated to prove (and explain). It's not as simple as claiming women who have long hair are treated different.
Sometimes you can advance a "sex-plus" argument, developed in court cases: sex plus another fundamental right..
such as free expression or free exercise of religion.
Political belief could include practices for example based on some solid "counterculture" belief and symbolic expression.
I once spoke with a university professor who confirmed that long hair could be considered to be a part of cultural identification with being German.
...along the same lines of your comments about Germanic tribes, BlackMetaller.
I hope this encourages someone.
Email me if you have any questions.
---------------------------------
goes against everything this website stands for. There are female cops and now even female combat troops who don't have short hair. Long hair can be worn in such a way as to not be a hazard.
Right on, Jason.
Oh please. This site is simply a board to discuss long hair. What exactly does it stand for other than that?
Women don't serve on the front line, only in auxiliary roles.
I have seen numerous videos of female cops getting beaten severely by perps; unable to defend themselves. That's an entirely different issue anyways. Women, obviously, have different hormonal levels, and cannot develop to the same size and strength, naturally, as a man would. Obviously the PC crowd will scream sexism but that's the way we are biologically. Long hair is no different. Even if he had a bun, it could easily come apart when running and then it could get grabbed. It's a matter of practicality, and safety.
If you can't figure that out I don't know why you're here. It is to promote and support men growing their hair long.
Comments such as yours saying cops and soldiers should have short hair are diametrically opposite to our mission here.
"With all due respect you should have short hair as a cop."
Thanks for the commandment, Your Lordship. But, um... no.
"What if a perp grabs you by the hair? What will you do?"
People who know nothing about personal combat or self-defense always seem to think it's a bad thing if an attacker grabs you. This is an erroneous presumption. If an attacker grabs you, you know where that hand is, and you know that it isn't striking you, shooting you, sticking a knife or broken beer bottle into you, etc. Being grabbed is a good thing if you know what you're doing, and provides an excellent opportunity to apply all sorts of evil leverage to your attacker's body in ways that make it go 'snap, crackle, pop.'
"It's an unnecessary hazard to you and possibly other officers too."
Wrong. See above.
"It's like the army. There is a reason for cutting hair; it is more practical and efficient."
Mandated hair cutting in the army didn't become prevalent in modern times until World War I, when trench warfare brought with it the complications of lice infestation. Although Roman soldiers often wore short hair and shaved their faces, that had more to do with both showing subservience and maintaining the boyish appearance which was then socially 'en vogue' (and considered sexually desirable to other men). It had nothing to do with combat efficiency.
I realize that you only stated your opinion, which is certainly your right. It is far more admirable, though (in my opinion), to state an INFORMED opinion, and yours clearly was not.
Peace,
Val
Why do you assume I know nothing about combat? I train in Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I've had a few amateur sanctioned fights, and a few "street fights" too.
Watch Royce Gracie vs. Kimo Leopoldo from one of the early UFC events. When someone grabs your hair, you can't get away, and it hurts quite badly. Very easy to get your face pounded in then.
"Why do you assume I know nothing about combat?"
I didn't say you know nothing about combat. I just said you've made an incorrect presumption about the dangers of long hair in combat.
"I train in Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I've had a few amateur sanctioned fights, and a few 'street fights' too."
If there was an 'eye-rolling' emoticon feature on this message board, I would insert it here.
"Watch Royce Gracie vs. Kimo Leopoldo from one of the early UFC events."
I have watched that fight several times. The rules of combative games are limiting, and different from the rules of real combat. There were all kinds of nasty things Kimo could have done, had he been willing to destroy parts of Royce's anatomy (especially in his hand, wrist, elbow, and shoulder).
"When someone grabs your hair, you can't get away, and it hurts quite badly."
You can get away (if you want to), and the experience of pain is relative.
"Very easy to get your face pounded in then."
Or not. Just think outside the box.
--Val
I had an attacker grab my hair and hold on. It did enable him to 'rabbit punch' me in the temple, which was no fun. With hindsight, I realise the solution is to move towards the attacker instead of trying to get away. For example, while he was doing that I could have (and should have) charged him and knocked him to the ground. Probably he would have let go when all the air was knocked out of him. I don't know if that type of move would have been permitted in the bout you are talking about, and nor do I much care.
I didn't expect to be randomly attacked while walking down the street, and I'm damned if I would do anything with my hair, like putting it in a bun, much less cutting it off, just on that offchance. Whilst cops, etc., may expect to get attacked, mostly they don't, and a bun ought to prevent most attackers from grabbing their hair. Most of the time they rely more on their authority (and their weapons) than their fighting skills, because there are always going to be people who are bigger than the average cop and/or better fighters.
I thought the reason for short hair/shaved heads in the army was a response to the rise of trench warfare and a preventative measure against fleas and lice. And since then, it just stuck as a tradition.
Go for it!
Unless you live in one of the few states with privatized prisons, I think you'd be a government employee, which could have benefits in this area. It's possible there's a state-wide government policy against sexual discrimination. Or you might find that there's a senator who feels strongly about sexual discrimination and would help you out. (Stranger things have happened.)
The only danger I see is that they could say "OK, we'll give you equality: everybody has to have short hair". I don't know much about your state or your line of work so I can't say if that's at all possible.
Keep in mind that if things don't turn out as expected, there's always another job -- this was a hard lesson for me to learn. I used to always think that "no other job is as good as this; I can't leave this job!" but after switching workplaces a couple times I pretty much got over it. So, go for it, knowing that even if they tell you to take a hike, there are plenty of other employers in this world who would happily hire you.
Ra: I have finally decided what I will do with my current situation. The rules state for the training academy for Corrections in MI that hair can be worn long but must be tied up in a bun secured with bobby pins that match your natural hair color, FOR a female canidate. The policy does not get too specific on men, it says only that hair can't be shown hanging over the shirt collar. So I am going to go in there and wear my hair in a bun with black bobby pins to match my hair color. I have no idea how they will react to do this. I am told by another officer 5 years ago a Native American gentleman did this same thing claiming sex based discrimination and refusing to cut his hair due to cultural beliefs. They gave him some hell but eventually they grew tired of hassling him and just let him do it. No one has tried it since then. So there is kind of a precedence for this. So please wish me luck. It would be great to win another victory for us longhairs!
It is very hard nowadays for agencies to find enough police and corrections officers. If you are a good candidate, it will be really tough for them to pass you by. Governmental agencies can be idiots when they find themselves in this situation though, while "the bottom line" keeps most private employers a bit more realistic. The armed forces, for example, fire gay soldiers who speak Arabic - talk about stupid!
Michigan Corrections seem a bit more levelheaded than the armed services, though. They seem to be preferring short hair but making exceptions for guys like the ones you mentioned and our own Jonalbear. If they want you, they will probably have you, hair and all.
Good luck!
Bill
Hey Bill,
Maybe this is what they mean by, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" (lol), --- I mean, OMG, what if "the enemy" were to ever find out that gay U. S. soldiers were so good at sewing that they might come out with a style in women's clothing more fashionable than the Burkha? Shocking!! Of course, according to what Iran's "I'm-a-dinner-jacket" said while visiting the US, there are absolutely NO homosexuals whatsoever in the entire country of Iran... (cough cough)....
So, maybe this explains why gay Arabic-speaking soldiers are fired from the US military? (I certainly can't hink of any other reason - lol!!)
- Ken
Maybe they have a Don't Ask Don't Tell policy for long hair. If anybody said anything, he could act secretive and quietly tell them to not say anything.
most government jobs are extremely anti-longhair on men. They are probabily going to force you to cut it. They probabily just let the Native American you mentioned have long hair because it was part of his cultural beliefs.
If you are caucasian you really cant play that card.
And dont think about adopting a religion that forbids it or claim to. The only religion that requires you to NOT cut your hair is sikhism and you will have a VERY difficult time as a white man in america convincing ANYONE you are a sikh.
even IF you manage to get away with it you'll still face fierce descrimination on a regular basis as most law enforcement officers are very conservative.
- - i can personally name at least seven caucasion men who are sikhs. and about a dozen who are studying to become sikhs. those are just the ones i know on a personal level. i've met many more of them. sikhism is becoming very popular.
the only problem i see in claiming that as your religion for job purposes is that you also connot cut your beard.
what do u know abt sikhism...just curious
admittedly, i don't know a great deal about it. i dated a guy during the summer who is studying to become a sikh. he's become a good friend, and i recently borrowed a couple of his books - but i haven't started reading them yet. i liked what i saw while we were dating, but i have no desire to convert. i just like to learn. hopefully soon i'll be able to tell you lots of interesting things. :)
ooh well played nic, back of the net.
Of course, if you're a male sikh you must also carry a dagger at all times, and always wear long underwear! OTOH, I have heard of sikhs agreeing not to carry their daggers because of security restrictions.
The real deal breaker, though, is that in public your hair should always be wrapped up in a turban.
Occasionally you even see sikhs wearing a sort of hair net over their beard. I don't think there's any rule requiring that, but I've never seen one on anyone who wasn't sikh.
Mind you, a few American sikhs don't even have long hair. I know at least one like that.
There is a gas station where I sometimes go that was run by sikhs at one time (NOT where I acquired the above facts, LOL, there are loads of sikhs back home in England) and one guy there told me how good it was to see a man with long hair and how it reminded him of home. Most of them are from India, especially the NW frontier. It would be nice to go there one day, but that will only happen in my dreams.
Yeah a lot of younger Sikhs that I've known have cut their hair to "fit in". I think it's cool anyways to see some older Sikh guys walking around with obvious long hair. Often it's waist length but they keep it covered, which is a shame, but alas that is their religion.
Yeah, Nicole, how DARE you allude to ever be an authority on Sikhism! LOL! Havin' work'd CLOSELY my(s)elf on the job with Sikhs, I can attest that 1.) men grow their hair and beards to terminal lengths, all on religious grounds; 2.) the actual founder OF the Sikh religion, Guru Nanak, took Hinduism and coalesced all of their gods under a monotheistic structure; 3.) it was created under a retaliation to Islam; 4.) this is the reason Sikh men carry an elaborately configured dagger. End of comprehension from this ex-Anglican now resolutely Born-Again Pagan Anglo-Saxon.
Ironic, isn't it, that in the days following September 11th that Sikhs, what w/ their life-long hair growth contain'd within their religiously-mandated turbans, would be assassinated by anti-Islamisists, when their own religion was established as a retaliation TO Islam into the bulwark of largely Hindu India?
Amazing, isn't it? Humans! . . . sigh . . .there's an amazing video feed archive of a Sikh mother grooming her pre-legal Sikh son'e amazingly long hair here somewhere. Unfortunately, I don't know its URL anymore. I should've written it down. Moderators? Any of you guys know wherefrom I speak?
Best wishes in religious comprehension camaraderie,
Quenyan
I've seen civil servants with long hair including longhaired mailmen for instance.
Good for you! I have always hated that ( as a woman who
LOOOOVES long hair on guys ).
I kind of deal with the same thing because i like having
really short hair, in fact it is shaved right now.
People either assume I am gay, have cancer, or am
crazy.
Why can't a guy have long hair and a girl have a shaved
head? Why?
And for the record i think i look damn hot with it shaved !
LOL
When I was in college I had a girlfriend there who wore close-shaven hair. I thought it was cool- we were kind of a radical couple.
----------------
Actually I'm half Northern Indian from India. Though I know quite a bit about Sihkism I can't see myself converting to that faith. I'm going to play the biological sex card and see how that goes. I spoke to another correction officer who encouraged me go with this. Though he is a short he thinks it's stupid as well. Women CO's go through the same training and involved in just as many risky situations as men are in the MI corrections system. I got into an awful debate with my sister about this who believes long hair will make me "look weak" in the eyes of inmates as a correction's officer. I believe it this kind crap that perputrates just breeds more of this kind of ignorance. It is sexist and narrow minded and I am sick of it!
- my question to her would be, "then why do so many under cover agents grow their hair long to 'look tough' for the streets?"
I guess it's more to look like possible drug users and/or just to look less like a police officer. OTOH, they seldom have hair longer then their shoulders, i.e. just enough to convince people but no longer.
There again, I think his sister is mistaken also.