new thread
i just wanted to update everyone on some recent events about those idiots at "hair reserves" i was the one who wrote to their sites server and informed them they were breaking the law by using images of people without permission. apparently, they acted on my complaint and shut "hair reserve" down. i hope they keep them off the internet. Although i despise "hair reserve" and think they are bigots, i am not against freedom of speech. However "hair reserve" crossed the line when they broke the law and put images of people over the internet without their permission. "hair reserve" knew they were breaking the law and did it anyway. I am very glad they are off the internet. Should they come back and break the law again, i will have them thrown off again.
I have a few problems with this.
First: are you *REALLY* concerned with their breaking the law, or were you upset with their content? If you are concerned with the copyright violations, are you writing the providers of the *THOUSAND* of fan sites devoted to various actors? All of them post copyrighted material without permission. If you're only singling these people out for enforcement, then it becomes difficult to believe that you're acting out of respect for the law. Can you provide us with a list of other sites you've reported this way?
Second: I agree that these are people with some deep seated problems. That's exactly why they should be kept on the net. Nazi Germany only managed to perform their evil because people didn't know what was happening. Hate groups flourish in the dark, not the light - which is why Klansmen wear hoods. They didn't go away, their just invisible now. That's a much more dangerous position for bigots to be in.
You have some good points here, but I don't thibk that you have the best analogy. In the USA, celebrities, as public persons, have traditionally lost some of their 'normal rights' in the name of free
speech. And even if they would be able to prevail in a case of copyright infringement, they would usually prefer not to have the negative publicity.
That said, most ISPs will block a site when there are complaints of copyright infringement, slander, etc. But we should refrain from using this weapon in all but the most glaring cases and try to work with the owners of the sites to voluntarily withdraw the objectionable material.
Actually, Disney and Warner are like guard dogs in going after copyrighted sites ... and it is frequently the studio that owns the rights rather than the individual.
As to working with the owner of the site, was that tried? It didn't seem so. It still seems to be a matter of wanting to suppress content rather than simply following the law.
I will state what i said before. i want to make sure i am clearly understood. This was not about censorship. it was about protecting innocent people from possibly being harrassed or worse, physically harmed. I do not know what "hair reserves" intentions were when they posted PICTURES OF men with long hair on their site. It seemed like they were trying to target them. I could not locate the host because they did not put their names on the board. They are cowards. They know they are a hate group and they do not want anyone to know who they are. Everything i did was within the bounds of the law, UNLIKE "hair reserve" I know i would not want MY picture on "hair reserves" site, Would YOU like YOUR picture on "hair reserves" site? Saying you dont like long hair is one thing, PUTTING UP SOMEONES PICTURE WITHOUT PERMISSION ON A HATE SITE IS QUITE A DIFFERENT THING. Obviously, the issue was not about Copyright infringement. it was about not having our pictures put on their HATE SITE. It is MY RIGHT to NOT have my picture on someone else's site, especially a HATE SITE. I used the copyright law to have them shut down. And I am VERY HAPPY ABOUT IT!!!!!
I totALLy disagree with Beagle Boy. He diverts from one mode of thought to the other ": I am neither saying nor implying that no one knew", yet also saying that the Nazi's hid all the facts from the people. The fact is that Germany was in a problem economicwise so the Nazi's promised to pull it out of the problem, however doing this by brutal methods. For exAmple getting Jews out of work and German's into it. The majority of people didn't care about the Jews because they believed genuinely that they were the problem, thanks to propaganda and all the German's recognised was their life getting better as the Nazi's did more (Obviously this ended with the outbreak of WW2). It was just one big mess.
Got to say I do agree with BeagleBoy to some extent here - after all, anyone with half a brain who reads the site, will recognise how ridiculous it really is, and will maybe even decide to grow their hair out so as not to be associated with these loons.
"Nazi Germany only managed to perform their evil because people didn't know what was happening"..... I'm not too sure about this comment. Look at such instances as Crystal Nacht where the people of Germany went nuts on the Jewish population. Also I'm sure the SS had families who new of the atrocities that went on. Hitler's whole political campaign was geared around getting rid of the Jews. Read up on your history dude.
Certainly won't argue with you over Crystal Nacht .. or the Night of the Long Knives, for that matter. There will always be individual acts of evil in the public view.
I was thinking more in terms of the Holocaust a long-term unspeakable. Most Germans ... even those openly anti-Semitic - were basically good people who would never participate in genocide. I *DO* believe that many tried to look the other way so that they didn't have to face what was happening.
As a Jew(and an Israeli) I must comment on this.
Saying that "Most Germans.....even those openly anti semitic" were "basically" good is a very weird thing to say.
Saying that knowing that millions of Jews are getting killed and not do anything is VERY WRONG.
I believe that every one of us has a "beast" inside which under certain circumstances can get loose and those who considered good keep their beast under control.
the majority of the people of Nazi Germany are example of what happens when people turn their back on their morals and let their beast loose.
So don't crap me about them being basically good because they weren't!
This would be true *IF* they knew that it was going on. Documents from the period indicate the extremes that the government went to hide this ... efforts that became even more extreme when it became obvious they were going to lose the war. Their efforts to hide their acts from the rest of the world would have been ludicrous if the general populous of their country knew about it. Do I think that many people of the country thought / knew something was wrong? Probably. That's a far cry from knowing what's happening.
My guess is that many people specifically didn't want to know. Considering how the Gestapo dealt with citizens who questioned the government, that could be understood. In that case, however, their crime was cowardice. Even today, however, most people don't have the courage to speak up for what is right if they fear even mild repercussions. The repercussions from the Gestapo were *NOT* mild. Remember, the HJ had children spying on their parents; far safer to avoid knowing.
Everyone knew of the people sent to concentration camps. To say that automatically insures they knew what was happening there is a leap in logic that can't be justified. We sent Japanese-Americans to internment camps; I doubt there were many Americans that knew what was happening in the camps. Thank heaven we weren't inclined toward genocide!
Note: I am neither saying nor implying that no one knew, but historical facts do not support everyone - or even the majority - knowing what was happening in the camps.
Were they complicit? To the extent that they allowed the government to exist, certainly. The most frightening part of the entire era is that everything Hitler did was legal. He manipulated the system in a horrifying manner - probably the best example in history to demonstrate that legality and morality are not the same thing. That it was legal emphasizes that people *MUST* monitor what their government is doing ... and hold them accountable.
I am certainly not trivializing what happened. Actually, manipulating the system and doing this under the noses of the people - and the rest of the world - underscores the type of monster that it took to plan the Holocaust. Stephen King doing his best work didn't even begin to approach the type of horror done by those people.
OK, since we're headed so hard off the Longhair track I thought I'd throw this one into the fray...
The Germans of the WWII really liked having the Gestapo around to lay all the blame on. It made for a great way to deflect attention on their actions and they did a really good job of perpetuating the myth that the whole Final Solution program was a secret one. The reality of the matter was that the Final Solution secret was an open one at best.
You should read "Hitler's Willing Executioners : Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust" by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen for more details on just how widespread the knowledge of the genocide was and how deeply it was accepted by ordinary Germans.
True, ordinary Germans may not have known the exact details of just how the undesirables (Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, asocials, Jehovah Witnesses, Communists, etc.,.) were treated but they had a pretty clear idea that such untermentsch were getting "what they deserve" and if that left many of them dead in the process, well, too bad for them.
So, basing your argument on there being some secret about this which would have stopped that evil had that secret been revealed is a spurious one.
Madoc
That sounds like the debate about prison reform. Enough said. If you would like to talk about prison reform, Nazis, etc. then do it on the OutLand board, not here! The Webmaster is going to be mad at us unless we talk about long hair.
I would agree with Beagle Boy and Madoc Pope on this one. Read what Madoc says in message #17972 of the archives.
i will answer your question. Although i despise "hair reserve" and think they are bigots, i am NOT against freedom of speech. If you recall, i originally DID NOT ask to have them shut down. I told all of you to "invade" their site and fight with them so they could not speak their hatred without anyone opposing them. I did NOT want to censor them. However, "hair reserve" was posting pictures of men with long hair and turning INNOCENT PEOPLE INTO TARGETS. "hair reserve" was not only breaking the law but they were putting people's photographs up. can you imagine what could happen? One of these guys could decide to hurt someone they saw on "hair reserves" site. That was my issue with "hair reserve" They crossed the line when they did this. As for what you asked about other sites, the answer is no. Other sites that put "celebrities" up are just breaking copyright laws but they are NOT a hate group. They do not intend to physically harm the celebrity, nor do they preach hate against the celebrity. There is a big difference. Yours is not a fair comparison. I do not know what "hair reserves" intentions were. And i was not about to find out before it was too late.
Exactly my point. You weren't concerned about the fact they were breaking the copyright law, you wanted them stopped because of their content.
With all their bombastic ridicule of people with long hair, they did *NOT* threaten anyone. Not liking what they were saying, you inferred that to be a threat.
Censorship? "As always, we'll let the audience decide"
And how do you know some dimwit won't take their hatred seriously and
go looking for one of those in the pics to attack? I don't think that
these "haircut reserves are as innocent and pure as the driven snow
as you seem to.
i believe i already answered your question, but you obviously are unwilling to listen to what i have to say. also, you seem to be a "friend" of "hair reserve" but in any case, i will attempt to answer you one LAST time.
it all comes down to this: I DO NOT WANT MY PICTURE ON SOMEONE ELSE'S SITE. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO PUT ANOTHER PERSON'S PICTURE UP WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION! WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CELEBRITIES WHO ARE ALREADY KNOWN. MYSELF AND OTHERS ARE UNKNOWN AND WE DON'T WANT OUR PRIVACY INVADED. enough said
You really believe that the they didn't know what was happening? You got to be kidding!