new thread
This is a topic we've debated a few times, but I found a web page with
at least a slightly different take on it, which encouraged me to do
yet *more* research on the subject (in case no one's noticed, I have
this tendency to research topics to death...) Please note, these are
quotes, not my opinions:
First, from "Should Men Have Long Hair?"
(http://www.postfun.com/pfp/hair.html)
>SHOULD MEN HAVE LONG HAIR?
>
>Many Christians claim that God does not want men to have long hair.
>They are wrong: God loves long-haired men.
>
>According to God's law, a man must not cut the hair at the sides of
>his head and he must not clip the edges of his beard. (Leviticus
>19:27) If a man is a NazariteÑ - one who is specially dedicated to
>God - he must not cut his hair at all. (Numbers 6:5)
>
>The Bible tells us that Absalom, king David's son, was the most
>handsome man in all Israel: he cut his hair only once a year. (2
>Samuel 14:25) The apostle Paul, however, wrote: "Does not even
>nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor
>to him?" (l Corinthians 11:14). But nature teaches us nothing of the
>sort. Perhaps Paul, who was bald, was jealous of men who had long
>hair. He had also repudiated God's law, so he felt free to invent
>laws of his own. (Galatians 2:16, etc.)
>
>Jesus, however, did not repudiate God's law. "ÒDo not think that I
>came to abolish the law or the prophets... For truly I tell you,
>until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a
>letter, will pass away until all is accomplished" (Matthew 5:17-18).
>
>We can therefore safely conclude, on biblical evidence, that Jesus,
>too, had long hair and a long beard, just as orthodox Jews have to
>this very day. So fellows, if you fear God, love Jesus, and want to
>be the most handsome men in the land, get your hair cut only once a
>year. And never shave.
>
>Read the Bible!
Further, if you go to the best Bible search page I've found (at
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible) and search on the word "hair" you'll
find 81 matches. No, I'm not going to put them all here, especially
since most are talking about goats and camels... however, here's a few
interesting ones (I use RSV translation, incidentally):
Leviticus 10:6. And Moses said to Aaron and to Elea'zar and Ith'amar,
his sons, "Do not let the hair of your heads hang loose, and do not
rend your clothes, lest you die, and lest wrath come upon all the
congregation;"
While the synopsis above does justice to Leviticus 19:27, I think you
guys will like the actual words of Numbers 6:5: "All the days of his
vow of separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the time is
completed for which he separates himself to the LORD, he shall be
holy; he shall let the locks of hair of his head grow long."
Further, Numbers 6:18 has a nasty penance if such a Nazarite sins:
"And the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the door of the
tent of meeting, and shall take the hair from his consecrated head and
put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace
offering." If you've ever smelled burning hair, you'll realise this
is part of the punishment....
Of course, Samson was a Nazarite (Judges 16:17-19): "And he told her
all his mind, and said to her, 'A razor has never come upon my head;
for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother's womb. If I be
shaved, then my strength will leave me, and I shall become weak, and
be like any other man.' When Deli'lah saw that he had told her all
his mind, she sent and called the lords of the Philistines, saying,
'Come up this once, for he has told me all his mind.' Then the lords
of the Philistines came up to her, and brought the money in their
hands. She made him sleep upon her knees; and she called a man, and
had him shave off the seven locks of his head. Then she began to
torment him, and his strength left him."
Bill in SF will definately like Proverbs 20:29: "The glory of young
men is their strength, but the beauty of old men is their gray hair."
Jeremiah has several passages (7:29, 9:26, 25:23, 49:32) talking about
how cutting one's hair is synonymous with being unholy. Similarly,
the listing of horrible things which will happen to enemies of Israel
in Micah 1 ends with a threat that Mare'shahites shall be shaven bald.
Ezekial gives instructions for Levitical priests, which refers to hair
in 5:1, 16:7, 23:34 and especially 44:20: "They shall not shave their
heads or let their locks grow long; they shall only trim the hair of
their heads."
Which brings us to Saul of Tarsus (nee St. Paul), who in Acts 18:18
shaves his head, then in 1 Corinthians 11, 1 Timothy 2, and 1 Peter 3,
tells what "nature" shows us about long hair on men and women.
Finally, in case no one's guessed yet, I have more sympathy for
Gnosticism than Nicean (Catholic and Orthodox) creeds, so using the
Gnostic search engine at http://www.gnosis.org/search_form.html I
found a few more interesting tidbits...
Theodotus 39 reads "And he said, too, that on account of their hair
and finery, women are punished by the Power that is set over these
matters; which also gave to Samson strength in his hair; which
punishes the women who allure to fornication through the adornment of
their hair." I'm sure he'd be just as displeased with how much I
(and other men) enjoy men and women who melt over long hair....
Reply to Faustus the Manichaean 6:1: "not to appoint as priest a bald
man, or a man with red hair, or any similar peculiarity, as being
unclean in the sight of God, are things which we both despise and
laugh at, and rank as of neither first nor second importance; and yet
they are all precepts and judgments of the Old Testament. You cannot
blame me for rejecting the Old Testament;" Now I didn't find any
mention of red hair in the OT (I looked, especially since mine's the
colour of bright copper), but Faustus is specifically saying that he
doesn't place weight on denying baldies and redheads the opportunity
for priesthood. hmm...
The Stromata of Celems Alexandrius, Book II, Chapter XVIII, paragraph
6 states that if a master falls in love with a female captive should
shave her hair, both to shame such a disgraceful love, and also to
determine whether it's love or lust, since no one could possibly lust
after a shaved head. (heh)
And in Book VI, Chapter XVII, paragraph 9 the Stromata says: "But if
'the very hairs are numbered, and the most insignificant motions,' how
shall not philosophy be taken into account? For to Samson power was
given in his hair, in order that he might perceive that the worthless
arts that refer to the things in this life, which lie and remain on
the ground after the departure of the soul, were not given without
divine power."
Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book II, 26:2 may be criticising Celems
Alexandrius--he doesn't say which sect he's attacking--for analysing
Jesus' comment about "even the hairs on your head are all numbered" by
"inquiring into the number of hairs on each one's head, and endeavour
to search out the reason on account of which one man has so many, and
another so many, since all have not an equal number, but many
thousands upon thousands are to be found with still varying numbers,
on this account that some have larger and others smaller heads, some
have bushy heads of hair, others thin, and others scarcely any hair at
all,--and then those who imagine that they have discovered the number
of the hairs, should endeavour to apply that for the commendation of
their own sect which they have conceived?"
But by far the most interesting passage is the fortieth paragraph of
the Apocryphon of John: "And the powers began: the first one,
Goodness, created a bone-soul; and the second, Foreknowledge, created
a sinew-soul; the third, Divinity, created a flesh-soul; and the
fourth, the Lordship, created a marrow-soul; the fifth, Kingdom,
created a blood-soul; the sixth, Envy, created a skin-soul; the
seventh, Understanding, created a hair-soul. And the multitude of the
angels attended him and they received from the powers the seven
substances of the natural in order to create the proportions of the
limbs and the proportion of the rump and the proper working together
of each of the parts."
Oo! the imagery of a hair-soul!
I think the message in all this is pretty clear: If you want to
follow Old Testament law and/or the law of Jesus Christ, grow your
hair as long as it will grow, or maybe cut it annually if you prefer,
and never cut your beard for length, although you can trim the sides.
If you want to be Catholic or Orthodox, and place Saul's writings on
a pedestal, men have to cover and/or shave their hair before entering
a church to worship, but women are forbidden to do so. Finally, if
you prefer Gnostic texts over Nicean, it obviously has the attitude
that long hair is beautiful, but different writers have different
notions about how to treat that beauty....
But remember, the seventh power (a class of angel), which is
Understanding, created a hair-soul for us.... as the final detail in
the creation of us humans.
hmm.... can you tell I get bored at work on Saturdays? :->
Quoting myself, from an extract from my philosophy page where I share my opinions on long hair, and invite all other with an opinion to share them with the world...
``My offering to this discussion is based upon logic. If God had desired men not to have long hair would he not have created man as he created animals, whose hair upon reaching the proper length, sheds?''
But 'Pup, your work is a classic. PLEASE put it on your web page so it won't be lost to posterity when it falls off the board here in a few weeks!
Bill
I agree. I've already shown it to a couple of friends who have problem with long hair on religious grounds (never said they were bright). But then again, they have a problem with a lot of things like gay men/lesbians, and anything else that conflicts with their narrow little view of the world....sigh. I suspect that the concept of cable TV probably bothered them too.
--Chris
Yes, and some have contended that Jesus was also a Nazarite, hence the long hair. Or was he a Nazarene, whatever that is? Was he from Nazareth? I remember seeing a television show that stated that the city of Nazareth did not exist at the time of Christ. Hmmmm. Mistranslation somewhere?
Anyway, some information on the Nazarites: they were specially chosen from birth, dedicated to God and brought up in a sheltered environment. Their hair was never to be cut. This does not necessarily imply that not cutting hair is good. It simply is part of the covenant involving Nazarites.
I've often wondered about this. I wonder what the true best translation of whatever word "nature" came from really is. It seems to me plainly obvious that what is natural is for everyone to grow their hair long. Anything else is artificial.
and we're not biased or anything :>
anyways, someone else would have to tackle Saul's stuff in the
original Greek, I have more than enough on my plate. However, all six
common English versions of the Bible (NIV, NASB, RSV, KJV, Darby and
YLT) translate the word as "nature", for whatever that's worth.
No, of course not. Now, if we were talking about Edward scissorhands, on the other hand, I think nature would indicate something else.
I've never heard of Darby and YLT. What does YLT stand for? The Jerusalem Bible (my favorite) also translates it as "nature".
Victor wrote:
LOL! this brings an interesting thought... picture the collective
group of regular posters to MLHS running in fear from Johnny Depp in
whiteface just wanting to give us hugs...
descriptions of each are at
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bg/translations.html
BabyHuey wrote:
heh - that probably explains all six of those English translations.
I think if I go into more detail about my opinions on this one,
someone will be after my head.... :->
But I think it's important to note that a lot of the issues referred to there are about politics and control as much as authority in general - starting with self-control, then control of a man over his family and then the curch over man and God over church. Much of it is ultimately about keeping control over a church that had a high potential for fracturing.
This is my first posting here and I'm very exited about having found this forum. Not particularly wise of me to start with religion but here we go.
The greek I can't attest for, but the Latin also uses the term "natura". However it is very clear that what Paul is dealing with in this text is not hair, but rather issues of authorithy (of God over man, and man over woman) and with the more practical consideraton of the use of the veil (cover) by women and not by men, while praying. Interestingly even though Paul makes a case to uphold his arguments based on the order of authority and even recuring to the "nature" argument, he starts the chapter by refering to these as HIS INSTRUCTIONS to them, and ends it by attesting that even if someone is not convinced THIS WAS THE COSTUM OF THE CHURCHES. This to me is the key to understand the whole passage, Paul was trying in no uncertain terms to make the often unrully church of Corinth submitt to the accepted customs and teachings that had taken hold in the early christian churches.
The other texts in Thimothy and in Peter are in a similar vein, intended to regulate church conduct, and deal with advice against women wearig luxury hairdoos and dress, conveniently ignoring men. Easy to understand now why the Puritans, Shakers and Amish and Menonite women dress like they do. I was raised in hispanic Pentecostal churches where men were not allowed long hair, but women were not allowed to cut any of it. I grew up envying my female friends hair manes many of which extended bellow waist. Now that I'm all grown up and living away from home as a gay man that holds on to his faith (in a very open minded way), I have let mine grow (3 years now) and have it to mid back. Can't wait for it to grow longer.
On other biblical note, Did you know that Absalon died hanging from a tree by his own hair mane? That is what I call a hair accident!
BabyHuey wrote:
hmmm... I can just find that his head got stuck in each translation...
(9 Sam 18:9-10) another one for someone to research more (sorry, I
only do Germanic languages, no Greek or Hebrew...) and I can add it to
the rest of the the hideously long file I started this string with...
sorry, that should be 2 Sam 18:9-10 - 9 books of Samuel would be a bit
much...
Well, what do you know. I went and checked all my bibles with the same results. Makes me wonder about all those sunday school ilustrations I got as a kid with poor Absalon hanging from his hair. However when you think about it, it's kind of hard to get your head stuck in a tree in such a way that your body can hang from it, unless the hair gets entangled on the branches. Knowing that Absalon had longhair, it's easy to see where the imagery got started. Sory for jumping to conclusions and for not doing my homework before blurting out follow-ups. Now that I know that Coyote is going to be checking I'll have to be more carefull. :-))))
Anyway, in an encounter between Absalom, riding a mule, and some of King David's men, he caught his head in the thick branches of an oak. Evidently the mule continued, because he was left there dangling by his head. He did not hang to death, though. He was killed by lance as he hanged.
Most likely, since he had such long hair, there has been an assumption that he caught his hair in the branches. That certainly is possible the way I read it but not necessary.