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What religions are the worst offenders?
I know from firsthand experience The Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses) is one of the most intolerant. They routinely disparage longhairs in their literature and from the platform. They attribute all manner of bad qualities to men with long hair.
Some congregations are worse than others but frequently if a man's hair length touches his collar, he will begin to be harassed about his hair. Although they do not formally kick out male longhairs, they will ostracize them and basically drive them out. They are definitely made to feel unwelcome.
At their headquarters location and its worldwide branches, males are required to submit to hair mutilation at three (sometimes two) week intervals. Pride is taken in having clonelike members with very similar extremely short styles - kind of a Watchtower haircut if you will. They identity it as making them separate from "the world" and part of a "clean" people.
So if some Watchtowerites come to your door and you value your longhair identity and/or value having a beard, I would suggest you not allow them to begin to convert you.
Unfortunately, boys brought up in this have no choice of their own until they can live on their own.
I'm sure there are other religions which are very intolerant as well. To be forewarned is to be forearmed.
I am glad you brought this up. This is a problem I have had with my parents (Roman Catholic) since even before dedicating to be longhair. Any time they would see a male with long hair they would chastise him in private about his choice. I was considering posting something about this to discuss on here, but religion can be polarizing. I myself am agnostic with a willingness to at least hear what people have to say. The main problem being that everyone will try to initially make their faith seem like the most tolerant and sensible, until you read the text.
I say that the biggest weapon you have to argue with someone about faith is having a base knowledge of theirs and the historical background behind it. JW's are difficult in this regard because the are notorious for changing the already heavily edited text of the bible. Many of their "interpretations" of Hebrew and Greek are well documented to not be accurate with professionals in the field.
On the case of hair length, many Christians will cite Corinthians where Paul refers to the natural order of men going bald as proof that nature never intended for men to have long hair, and it is therefore shameful.:
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"
from I Corinthians 11:14
First you should point out that "nature" is not God and "shame" is not sin. So even if what Paul wrote was true, it is not a sin to have long hair. Secondly you should point out that at that time Corinth was supposedly full of cults and idol worshiping, depravity, etc... and Paul was trying to steer people away from being associated with cross dressing hookers and pagans. He does this by making allegorical reference to the head of people and their benefactors, namely, God. Thirdly, Paul continues by saying that women should not only keep long hair, but also never go to church without a veil! Ask anyone when the last time they saw a woman in church covering her face next time they talk to you about hair length. Fourth, Paul ends by saying that women are lower than men and if that doesn't invalidate anything he says, I don't know what will.
In truth, as far as I know the Greek translation doesn't even use the word "Long", just hair/covering. Even so, "Long" hair back then was different than it is today. Woman usually let it grow terminal, and working men usually had it to mid shoulders. So if Paul was railing against Long hair, it was terminal (still dumb though). While on the subject of old crazy Paul, it is interesting to note that he was a rather bald guy, coincidence?
As far as I know Islam says to only be tidy in appearance and most other religions don't bother telling people how to look. Most reasonable Christians will see Corinthians for what it is and not care either. Warning though: Some people make the wrong turn in defending long hair by citing Leviticus where is says not to trim your hair/beard. This was a commandment for people taking an oath.. So it is easy to debunk that by people of the faith who know about the Nazarean(sp) oath.
I am writing most this off the top of my head so sorry about the lack of reference, but in the NT it says that God doesn't care about the outward appearance, only what is in the heart. I would tell Christians that. My personal view is that if there is a higher power, they are much more interested in the deeds you do and the morals you live your life by than how much hair you have on your head.
Great topic, thanks for bringing it up.
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The Nazarite practice (also practised by Samson, who was pretty freakin' awesome until he let a woman cut his hair) is a good counter to bring up -- if Christianity was so at odds with long hair, Christ himself wouldn't have gone to one to be baptised. (Paul might have even come to the same conclusion if he'd ever actually been in the same room as Jesus. Even when he claimed Jesus came down from Heaven to talk to him, about three years after He was crucified, He was surrounded by a light so bright that Paul couldn't see for three days afterward, so who you gonna trust there?)
I have to disagree about the Nazarite vow as being a good defense.
First the Nazarite vow is a temporary ritual by early followers to separate themselves from God and their Earthly desires to that they might be more holy by the end of the finite trial.
This means a few things:
1. If you are not a follower of Judaism or Christianity, it makes little sense to cite the Nazarite vow as your reasoning for long hair.
2. The ritual is meant to be temporary and followed by the man shaving all his hair off at the end.
3. To cite the Nazarite vow also means to uphold the other restrictions, namely abstaining from anything with grapes in it, or touching dead things.
4. his is the most important... Long hair in the Nazarite vow is seen as a SHAMEFUL thing to have. The idea being that a man with long hair is to be sunned and mocked by society so his pride is broken and he will not be egocentric. The whole concept of long hair in the vow is a way of men being belittled.
I would avoid trying to out Christin a Christian in the argument for or against long hair. It can be slippery.
P.S. - Samson may have had his hair removed by Delilah, but it was only after he broke the vow of refusing wine and touching the dead bodies of his enemies. I believe her cutting his hair while he slept is a metaphorical allusion to him being stripped of the Nazarite vow.
Women have been the downfall of men in the Bible: Adam and Eve, Sampson and Delilah, King Solomon and his Egyptian, non-Hebrew wife. Women cause men more grief than joy! Look how often duels are fought to take a woman (even to this day)! It's no wonder they are veiled/cloaked/covered, put in the background of more orthodox religions and society historically. They cause problems! Sad but true.
I am not a fan of hardcore feminists, or even the particular way the womans' rights movement was orchestrated, so I am not speaking from a strictly pro-female platform. BUT I am inclined to think most the examples you present there are either equally he male's fault, or works of fiction.
1. Adam and eve. While an interesting read, I believe is a creation myth on the basis of biological and geological evidence. Assuming it were true, Adam knew very well that God forbade the taking of fruit from the tree and though equally free will at it also. That would be like you knowing full well that stealing is bad, but then a random woman telling you to steal and you doing it just because she said to.
2. Samson had long hair and the gift of strength by God because he had been raised as a Nazarite from birth. Part of being a Nazarite is to neither drink wine, eat grapes, or touch dead bodies. All of these things he did before finally being allowed to succumb to being trimmed. Remember, He KNEW Delilah wanted to strip him of his power when he told her that binding him with bowstring, then rope would make him powerless. She did BOTH of those things to him hoping he would be captured, and still he courted her and eventually told her what his secret was. He sounds much more to blame than her huh? And don't forget she was working for the Philistines, all men. Samson is a story about pride, broken vows, ego. Samson was a pretty brutal guy (Killing 30 men for cheating at a riddle???). If you ask me this is a Jewish Superman story.
3. And lastly King Solomon's mystery wife. Lets ignore that the meticulous record keeping Egyptians never mention the marriage of Israeli royalty to Egyptian royalty and assume Solomon did marry this unnamed daughter of a pharaoh. Originally God tells the Hebrews to leave the Canaanite city of Gezer unharmed and only put them to labor (such a merciful God). The Pharaoh says "Screw that!" and wipes them out, then gives the land to his daughter, and his daughter to Solomon. Essentially giving Gezer to Solomon. Strike 1. But stuff is still going well for Ol' King Solomon, then he began to lust after many women and concubines and started worshiping the gods from their lands. It WASN'T his non-Hebrew wife specifically that doomed him, but his lust and hunger for Earthly pleasures. Once again, you can't blame the woman for this. Men have a free will too. None of these examples have the woman forcing the man to do anything. All these men knew right from wrong and they were responsible for their outcome.
Like I said, I am no feminist supporter in the sense. But all these examples are far flung from any real evidence of women being inferior...
One VERY important side note is to remember this old book of alleged Godly love and compassion was written by men, in a time almost no women could read, and in a period of human history where men had complete control of everything. It is little surprise that these old myths use females as scapegoats and villains.
Amen to that! Thanks for your comments.
Hi Jason,
That is very disturbing what you just desrcibed as I know I'd never fit in with them at all.I drive around a lot for work and can attest to the many, many Jehovah Witness halls sprinkled all over the area.I too have seen them cruise the streets on Saturdays ringing doorbells to plead their case.I know its them and never answer.I don't even want to give a foot in the door to them.They would never change my mind and I don't like the idea of being told how I should look,act,etc.I feel bad for the people who are born into these religions because that's what their parents are into.
Mark
Hi Mark,
Yeah, it's a shame they are that way. I made some good friends while I was in it but they turned out to be conditional friends.
I'm glad you're able to live as you see right in your heart.
Jason
I've looked over all the other replies, and have noticed somthing, almost all of them are all really really long.
So just to shake things up alittle, I'm going to try to keep this short.
I honesly don't know any religins atitudes on long hair. And what someone believes (on hair length or anything else) is their business not mine, so Im not going to go into all that.
But I do know 1 thing, my parents couldn't have stated religious reasons for me to cut my hair even if they wanted to.
For 1 simple reason: one of our pastors own kids had waist-length hair for the first 3 or 4 years that they were our pastor.
Personally, people stopped even mentioning haircuts around me as soon as my hair stopped sticking out in a self-supporting afro every time it dried. But that was probably helped along by the fact that one of the guys in my group of friends has had upper-shoulder length hair for the last 5 or 6 years.
I'm glad you didn't receive harassment. It definitely helps to have other longhairs in one's social network.
Hi Jason,
Some Christians view uniformity of people as being a system of antichrist, so it makes you wonder about the Jehovah's "Witnesses". I've even had Bible Churches tell me the same thing however they let me have my hair and lifestyle according to my conscience. I respect them for that.
Jeffrey
Hi Jeffrey,
Uniformity is the Watchtower way. In almost all aspects life they grind down individuality. Grooming is just one area where they seek to form a hive mind.
Hi Jason,
I find this to be a VERY interesting topic for discussion here; so many thanks for posting this thread!!!
I was raised a Christian Scientist. I also happen to work as a cook at a private Christian Science nursing home here in the San Francisco Bay Area (my main source of income ever since the fall of '05, when I decided to gradually scale back on working in the landscaping and gardening business that i used to have); but I do not currently claim to be a "strict" Christian Scientist (I take prescription medications for a heart problem, for example; nor do I usually attend any church). Also, just FYI, employees of our kitchen (as well as in the housekeeping and maintenance departments) here are not required to be members of any church at all (we even have a few atheists! - LOL)....
Amazingly, SEVERAL employees here (both Christian Scientists, and NON, alike) just so happen to be longhairs. Also, even more interesting is the fact that our Administrator (a guy that I have known for over 30 years) was a longhair when he was a younger man -- even kept it "long-ISH" for many years during a fairly long duration of the time he was the Administrator at this nursing home.
Not all Christian Scientists are as supportive of long hair on men, though -- it can vary from individual church member to church member, as well as individual branch church congregations in general. But, overall, I've never heard of any CS church not allowing a person to join because of hair length -- or conversely, of being kicked out of any CS church for having long hair, either. It's not really an issue (although during the political upheaval of the 1960s and '70s, conservative Christian Scientists TRIED to make it an issue)...
Another interesting tidbit of recent information I've just heard about is from a distant aunt of mine that is staying up North of SF during this winter, in Northern CA's Sonoma County town of Petaluma. She hadn't seen me in over 20 years; so she marveled at how long my hair was when we saw each other about a week ago.
"And I can't believe how many men in our church have ponytails, too!", she said (although I was uncertain whether she was bragging or complaining about it - LOL)....
I hope that my contribution to this thread has been helpful, Jason!
Long Lox 4ever,
Ken
Hi Ken,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I didn't think Christian Scientists were too strict on hair length and it's nice to have you confirm it. I don't think diversity should be viewed as a bad thing.
Unfortunately, the Watchtower is vehemently opposed to any who stand out and that applies to many aspects of life. It's tough for those who value individuality and especially, of course, for born longhairs who aren't willing to sacrifice their entire lives on the alter of a hive-mind.
Jason
Witnesses are amazing intolerant. I know of a JW family whose daughter became pregnant by her boyfriend and was literally put out on the street by her parents. Fortunately the boyfriend's parents were nice people and took her in.
Wow, if that story doesn't warm your heart! /sarcasm
The secret for the Watchtower holding many of its adherents is that they get the kids to get baptized into it when they're fairly young and have no real knowledge of what the real world is all about. They're told God is going to kill them at Armageddon if they don't officially join so kids feel extreme pressure to do so. Once you're "dunked", you're basically in it for life. There's no way to exit gracefully. You will most likely lose your friends and family if you decide it's not for you. Most likely the person you mentioned was baptized and then thrown out of the religion for her actions and then shunned.
Once you're "dunked", you're basically in it for life. There's no way to exit gracefully. You will most likely lose your friends and family if you decide it's not for you. Most likely the person you mentioned was baptized and then thrown out of the religion for her actions and then shunned.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds a bit like when you become a "Made Man" in the mob.Once your in it, your in it for life or else!!LOL.What would Tony Soprano think.....
Mark
I have to agree on the whole jehova's witness people being pretty intolerant! Thankfully they are not even allowed into my current apartment building!
I used to have a pair of them come see me on a regular basis, and I kind of found it amusing how much they tried and tried! At first i rather enjoyed our conversations because they were not too pushy at first. However, then they started to mention my hair, and mention other aspects that i disagreed with. they kept trying to get me to go to their church.
finally I told them "hey, I'm a gay, longhaired witch! do you REALLY think you'll be able to convert me?"
Its funny because after that they never came back....
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Ha Ha Ha, that is sooooooooooo funny Kif! I'd love to have seen the look
on their faces when you told them that . I bet it was priceless;) You just
made my day.Cheers to you my friend!
Mark
Hey Mark,
Yeah it was pretty darn funny! They just stood there all speechless for a moment, said something along the lines of being sorry to hear I felt that way, and then left in an awful hurry!
LOL, OMG, that is just too funny, I love it!!!
I am glad you liked that! It's one of the more funny religion stories I happen to have. All the rest have nothing to do with my hair-length though.
You can have some pretty good discussions but the Watchtower trains them very well in how to overcome objections and provide the illusion of truth.
I'm surprised they had the gall to go after your hair at that point in the attempted conversion process. Usually, they'll wait until they have gotten you to go to a few meetings where you will be "love-bombed" and then they start to bring down the hammer.
At the time this was happening I was hanging out with a guy who was mixed up with another really strange church with some odd ideas. I forget what it was called. He had also met these people, and attended one of their services and said he "liked" it. After this was then they mentioned my hair to me.
It was not that I did not like talking to them because they were otherwise very nice and intelligent, and I really did like to hear their point of view, as much as I personally disagreed with it. It was once they attacked the hair and my sexuality that I lost patience with them.
-Kif
Friedrich Nietzsche said it best in his quote:
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
- Oren
Great quote, Oren! High control groups that are able to completely close down minds to any further reasoning can be very dangerous indeed.
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The JDubs come to my door maybe twice a month. I usually just send them on their way.
The best reply to the long hair issue (at least for me) is this:
God created both males and females with the ability to grow hair 2 to 3 feet long. I tell them that God must have made an error in giving males the ability to grow hair 3 feet long. If it was truly God's intent for MEN to have hair 3 inches or less, God would have NOT given men the ability to grow it longer than that.
I then say that short hair is a MAN MADE law. It comes down to this: God is in error or man is in error. There is a 100% chance it is one or the other. Now which is it?
This will usually run them off.
Scott
Wow, Scott, they come twice a month to your door?!! When I was in it, we tried to cover our "territory" once every six months. They must be extra-plentiful where you live.
I completely agree with you about your hair argument. If God felt so strongly about men having short hair, then he must have been having a really bad day when he designed how hair grows on men.
Have you ever actually had a conversation about men's long hair with JWs?
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Actually I have not, but I have been told by "well meaning" Christians that I should cut my hair. At that time, I had not come up with my current argument regarding male long hair.
Scott
Sikhs of course are required NOT to cut their hair and although not a 'christian' religion, that is interesting in the role of hair in 'faith'.
In Scotland the power of those espousing religion can be veryu powerful - for example the Free Church of Scotland where the 'meenister' (Minister in English)can dominate his congregation with is personal prejudices. Given that this lot only voted to sing hymns at their gatherings in November 2010 the extermism of a different sort is obvious, Why? Because hymns were deeemd too much like popery for them and far too fancy a concept. Psalms were Ok but tend to be much plainer.
... "Religion is the last vestige of human barbarism."
I agree with this statement, wholeheartedly. The human species has moved beyond the need for worship-based "religion;" our continued survival depends upon our ability to discard the institution, and instead embrace universal spiritual truths based on an understanding of interconnectedness and compassion. In the words of the current Dalai Lama of Tibet, "Kindness is my religion."
'nuff said.
--Val
val, did you read about the new governer of alabama, and what he said at a press conference, simple he said if your a christain he doesnt want anything to do with you, who does this guy think he is.
val, did you read about the new governer of alabama, and what he said at a press conference, simple he said if your a christain he doesnt want anything to do with you, who does this guy think he is.
val, did you read about the new governer of alabama, and what he said at a press conference, simple he said if your a christain he doesnt want anything to do with you, who does this guy think he is.
My sister had a friend in high school who's mother was a Witness, she'd give us Watchtower magazines and tracts. We used to think she was a bit zany, the literature was. They'd also come bangin' on our door about every 4 to 6 months. This friend did not observe the JW faith, as while his mother was a member, his father was not (the parents divorced)and the young man had little interest.
I am a cradle Catholic, and though the RCC has no rules, you have conservatives and the Traditionalists who favor the so-called 'clean cut' look. This is pretty much true of most Protestants as well, no rules but conservative fundamentalists and evangelicals strongly favor clean-cut very short hair. Other than the JW's, I can only think of Mormon's who also teach uniform conformity to grooming standards, just look up the dress code for Bringham Young University. In RCC parishes I have attended, I have encountered longhairs; even saw two young seminarians with long ponytails hanging down the backs of their Franciscan habits. For those conservative/Traditionalists-type Catholics, one need only point to an image of Jesus and of quite a number of canonized male saints of past centuries (who were not priests/religious), and note the long locks present on nearly all. Many families I knew in Emmitsburg, had at least 1 boy who sported long hair.
I'm sure you are quite glad to be away from the cult-like behavior of the Witnesses, I think strict rules like this are a means of creating easily brainwashed sheeple. I look at old pics of Nazi youth movements, notice how clean-cut they were? Create a herd mentality where everybody looks alike and (hopefully) thinks alike. Uniform dress codes and grooming standards are part of the plan for controlling the masses. I tend to be a radical who prefers rocking the boat, uniformity scares me. Jesus, after all, was a radical; and to the discomfort of the religious leaders of his day, was frequently rocking the boat. Do I even need to mention John the Baptist ;-)