new thread
At the risk of getting banned or offending some I have a subject that i want to bring up
the other day I was having an online discussion about mandated short hair for boys and Men in school/workplace and Florida came up and the person whom I had this discussion enlightened me about some of the resorts down there.
one in particular was Disney World, who he had been an employee of for a very brief time.
he indicated to me that hair had to be cropped closely and facial hair was not permitted at all and that their reasoning that he was given when told to cut his hair short and shave every day was because to promote a wholesome 'family' environment.
he also talked about how Disney hired openly Gay employees and promoted Gay Pride. he even showed me a site that stated it.
now, I am not homophobic or into gay/lesbian bashing-what they do in their own homes/communities is their business, but it did make me wonder what would be a corporation such as Disney's reasoning for doing this while denying people like us our basic God Given rights to wear long hair and have facial hair?
I see where you are going with this and I doubt you are going to get banned because nothing within your post was inflammatory or rude.
Correct me if I am wrong but you are seeing "wholesome" and homosexuality as oxymorons of each other, which I would disagree with. There is just as much dysfunction within the heterosexual culture as within the homosexual. I would disagree with Disney seeing as long hair or beards as some how related to dysfunction.
Obviously you are allowed your opinions I would say though, to maybe re-educate yourself, homosexuality does not equal dysfunction, just as long hair and beards do not either.
Ziggy
Also, I see where this would be heading, I am not one to partake in Pride events, although I do see myself as a wonderful human being. I have come from a background of Evangelical Christianity and have seen both sides of the coin, so I can see where Pride would be seen as somewhat unwholesome given the activities that go on there within the parade as well as outside.
Just a tag on to clarify maybe where you were going and what I missed initially.
Ziggy
I should have stated 'traditional family values'. he used the word 'wholesome' when he probably meant 'traditional'
sorry if I offended you.
Dykes on bikes does not= Family values!!!!
Ziggy, i don't care what the law said about sodomy its wrong, and its proven to be as say dysfunctional.its a behavor.
James, I agree. I don't care what society or the law says. There are some practices/behaviors that are just wrong. Disney is a pitifully strong example of being so image-oriented that it's sickening. Guys with beards and longhair cannot work there because their looks don't resemble some fool that looks like Pee Wee Herman! Doesn't matter what they actually LIVE LIKE, just be sure that they APPEAR wholesome, anyway! What a fake piece of garbage! And, no--before someone tells me that it sounds like I'm putting myself above others, as far as the stand I take on this, I'm not. The Bible plainly states that homosexuality is an abomination to God. That piece of instruction is good enough for me.
The bible was also written by man and they instilled their own beliefs that homosexuality is wrong...No one should judge anyone for who they love...( I know for sure that GOD doesn't judge)
Truth is long haired men get stereotyped as being liberal when truth of the matter is I think more long haired men actually have more conservative values than average within society.
Then why do most corporations which generally have been managed by conservative types mandate shorter styles for male employees?
I agree with you wholeheartedly Dee. I'm a straight guy but I do believe in the statement "if it hurts no-one do what thou will" We need more love in this world instead of hate. The only hate i have is directed against sociopathic fascist bullies and lowlife wanksters. I'm sure God loves you as you are Dee. The bible is simply a book written by men from thousands of years ago who wrote down what they interpreted to be the word of god. I believe some of the writers had some serious hang ups. My favourite part of the new testament is that of John. There is absolutely no hate anywhere in his writings unlike many other parts of the bible. The old testament is pretty messed up. In the end listen to what your heart tells you is right and go with your instincts and intuition.
Duncan
Amen to that, Duncan!
All you need is love!
AMEN! That's telling it all like it really is. You see past the distortions. Right on!
What two consenting adults choose to do in private is their business. Don't have to like it and I don't accept that the bible is the word of god either. The creator I know is a being of love. I don't have much time for the christian version of what god is. And as long as the two adults concerned love one another that is what counts. Everyone has the right to happiness. Live your life and try not to judge harshly what others do else you will be judged in the same way. I didn't choose to be a right hander it's just the way i was made. Some people write with their left hand and trying to be a right hander doesn't work well for them.
If you are claiming that sodomy is a dysfunction because homosexuality USED TO be listed as a psychological disorder in the DSM, that argument doesn't hold water. The DSM is continually being updated as more research-based information becomes available. The first two editions were not fully based on reliable, research-based information. Numerous diagnoses have been: moved to different categories, found to be more (or less) severe than previously thought, found to respond better to treatment than previously believed, found to be more common than previously thought, expanded in sub-categories, or were done away with altogether (i.e. found to not be a disorder; homosexuality falls into this category).
In addition, sodomy is not exclusive to homosexuality. It is the most widely used method of birth control worldwide (has a reletively low 8% failure rate) among heterosexuals. Even when other methods of birth control are effectively used by heterosexuals, many of these women and men engage in sodomy because they enjoy it. And, yes, many heterosexual men enjoy "giving" as well as "receiving" anal intercourse from their female partners (with the use of sex toys). The sexual act in itself is not what determines if it is homosexual or heterosexual; the determining factor is the gender(s) of the persons involved.
The DSM is written by a bunch of liberal doctors who are probably in bed with the drug companies. The DSM is more about politics than it is about truth or really being able to help people. Frankly, diseases are made up to promote agendas like selling more drugs or putting more people on drugs to make people more servile. Why is flouride put into the water supply in many places? Until recenly (for example) there was no such disease as ADD or ADHD. Ever wonder why? The medical industry and psychiatry are all just another tool used by the New World Order to control people.
Why is flouride put into the water supply in many places? Until recenly (for example) there was no such disease as ADD or ADHD. Ever wonder why? The medical industry and psychiatry are all just another tool used by the New World Order to control people.
I believe the rise in ADD and ADHD is due to people eating food laden with chemicals and also the high amount of refined sugar content. Feed a child a diet of nutrionally dead junk food and what do you expect? As for floride why is it added to drinking water when you can buy toothpaste? I only drink purified water. Never tap water.
Duncan
True.
Of course, I think the right wing religious groups are against it no matter who does it with whom. At least when they are speaking in public!
Ziggy, i don't care what the law said about sodomy its wrong, and its proven to be as say dysfunctional..
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but until just a few years ago, didn't Disney resist hiring openly gay employees?
That makes me want to never visit Disney World and to write them a scathing condemnation of their odious policy. How dare they take it upon themselves to determine what is a "wholesome" look? I couldn't care less if they allow openly gay people to work there but what gives them the right to discriminate against longhairs?
*This wasn't offending in any way at all.
*A "Wholesome Family Enviroment?" Absurd! What about all of the greats of the past, our Forefathers, Ancestors? Were these "Non-wholesome" people? Disney world,get real: you are living in an illusion of some tragic cartoon of which Mickey Mouse himself would NEVER even have approve!
Simply more of the same moron intelligence that seems to prevail on a trite little issue that is not really an issues at all. MOTHER NATURE HERSELF DESIGNED MEN TO HAVE LONG HAIR AND FACIAL HAIR. This goes without dispute just as Mother Nature designed Women to have long hair and be the one to give birth to the children.
Well Disneyland, this is only "one" of very many many things that you might better put your minds to than harp on guys Long Hair and/or Facial Hair.
Of course, naturally there may be some errors here, but the bottom line is: something of much more importance. And guess what Disneyland? Did it ever cross your brainless little minds that it is not at all impossible that you may be put out of business simply because people may not have any money to visit your ever so Lofty(?) "Never-Never-Land KingDUMB?" Yes "Dizzland," OUT OF BUSINESES and because of an economic tragity that most likely could have been avoided had we had leadership that saw to it. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR SO-CALLED RULES FOR MEN. Long hair and Facial hair is of no threat to anyone and never has been. And to think, a "Cartoon Empire" as VAST as yours cannot even comprehend this? Pathetic!
well, when and if we have total economic collapse I seriously doubt that any Man or boy is going to pay any attention to any asinine "dress code" as well as who is winning "American Idiot(idol), "the voice" or any of the numerous idiotic "reality" TV circuses!
I remember several years ago when The Carpenters were starting out. They were fired from doing music at Disney because the officials said they had too much of a "hippie" image! That should tell you something!
Steve
"Male cast members are still forbidden from having long hair, although long-haired male guests are now permitted into Disneyland. Men employed at Disneyland may not have hair that touches their ears or their collars. Sideburns may not pass the earlobes, and mustaches are allowed if they are no longer than the corners of the employee's mouth.
The philosophy behind the cast members' dress code has not changed much - the "Disney Look" is to ensure that each and every guest feels comfortable around each and every Disneyland cast member. This consideration extends farther than simple appearance. All Disneyland cast members must point with two fingers or their whole hand, as pointing with one finger may be considered rude to some guests."
I have been there and taken my kids there when they were younger, even though I knew of their polcy.
It's probably because Walt himself didn't like beards and long hair, although long wouldn't have been very long in his day. He's been dead for years, although he had his body frozen. He isn't going to get thawed out and come back to life, so they should rethink their policy.
Well Walt's dead anyway!
I'm sure they don't don't quite have the same policy at Eurodisney or frog resort Paris or whatever it calls itself now. I've not been to a Disney resort since 1981.
All this talk of discrimination in the "big flag" state...perhaps we should direct a hurricaneover that way! :-)
Cheers,
John.B
I visited the Anaheim Los Angeles Disneyland in 1989. I wasn't aware of the mandatory short hair for male employees then. Most corporations today are run by short-haired sociopathic conservative control freaks. As for homosexuals working openly at Disneyworld I would think the gay employees would actually compliment the theme park as in my opinion I think the whole of Disneyworld is highly camp. One visit was enough. I prefer the organic real world. A question. I wonder if a shaven headed openly gay lesbian would be given work there, as the look would not be conservative on a women in a so called family themed park. It's time to leave this silly discrimination in the 1950's where it belongs not the 2010's.
Outside of the Armed Forces, Disney is the most anti-long haired place (for men) around. Even Publix Supermarkets(starting back in the mid 70's) modified their dress codes so males could have hair around chin length in the back and just above the ear lobes on the sides. When I worked there, I was able to get my hair around an inch below the chin and an inch below the earlobes before the manager would tell me that it was 'bushwacking time'
In the Early 70s, while still in college, I took a job as a waiter with Marriott hotels, Working such in a top line restaurant. I was asked/told that I would have to cut my hair, or wear it under a wig. I bought the wig and wore it only a few times. as I noticed the waitresses had no such regulations. I decided to take action. I went on the floor the next day. Hir down below my shoulders, flowing free. and worked my arera. There were no complaints. in fact. I recieved a few flirtatious compliments. Surprisingly, Nothing was said. Ever. It appeared thje policy changed and persons could have long hair styles, if kept neat and clean. It was a non issue on the floor. but kitchen staff had to wear nets and tiebacks, there were quite a few longhairs in the hospitality business at that time. As for Disney. Long hair is certainly represented in quite a few of their live action and animated characters. Odd they should still carry such restrictions. A big point was made when they allowed "Cop-Staches" Amazing what makes the insecure nervous, isn't it.
Perhaps the head honchos there are so far behind the times that they think 'Gay' means happy (lol).
I for one am thankful that the Walt Disney Company works so hard to keep such unsavory characters from working in their parks. I mean sure, a few Disney *villains* have sported longhair (naturally), but never any heroic characters.
Beauty and The Beast
Beauty and The Beast
Beauty and The Beast
Beauty and The Beast
Beauty and The Beast
Beauty and The Beast
Oh darn, and that was just a few off the top of my head. :(
Seems they're a little bit confused on their standards. All of those characters were pretty wholesome if my memory serves me correctly.
HA HA! That's the same thing I was thinking!!! LOTS of male Disney characters have long hair, and I don't see parents boycotting Disney or forbidding their children from watching the movies because they portray long haired male characters of upstanding calibur. :)
Sorry! I meant to type "Go Schmoe!" in the 'subject' line, not the name line. :) :)
Im not going to be so subtle, men have to wear there hair short and no facial hair at the Disney corporation as not to offend family values. i live 50 miles from Disney world, every year the Disney corporation has a gay pride day. could somebody tell me the difference between a guy with long hair and a guy sucking someone off anywhere on Disney property IN PUBLIC. i think most of us know deep down which one does not promote family value,s. im out James/Tampa,Fl
The U.S. founding Fathers could not work as employees there any more than we could.
imagine Benjamin Franklin being told he had to get a haircut.
there seems to be a lot of intolerance towards long haired males in your state based on what I've learned while high tolerance for gay/lesbian couples and that does not really make any sense to me at all.
now, as a Floridian perhaps you could enlighten me about the workplaces in your state and the experiences you have had as well as other long haired males that you know of.
Benjamin Franklin is the man! Ron Paul for President in 2012! www.ronpaul2012.com
James, aren't you the guy who complained a few weeks ago when I mentioned here on the forum, strictly in passing, that I was gay? Why is this such a hot bottom for you?
Don't you agree that anyone (gay or not) seen engaging in oral sex IN PUBLIC is likely to be, at a minimum, escorted out of the park, or more likely, slapped with an arrest or citation for lewd bahavior or indecent exposure?
Do you thing it would be permissable if it were a woman?
No axe to grind, but what a Freudian slip!
You said: "Why is this such a HOT BOTTOM for you?"
I like hot bottoms too, but only on women, LOL! Whatever turns you on.
Maybe we ought to do a letter writing campaign to change Disney's policy against long haired employees? There's a lot of people who use this web site (MLHH).
Hey James lighten up! I don't give two hoots what homosexuals do with each other in private. Two consenting adults can do whatever they like. Seriously no-one in their right mind either straight or gay would do sexual acts in public in a theme park. Disney world corporation is just chasing the almighty pink dollar. Must admit I am surprised to hear about Disney world has a Gay day whilst claiming that long haired males are a threat to so called family values. I do feel sorry for children who have two dads and no mother and vice versa. How would they feel on mother's day or father's day? In conclusion I think we must be tolerant of others even if we don't personally agree with it. As a longhair minority who suffer from discrimination we should at least have some empathy with other minority groups.
Duncan
I am honestly surprised that nobody has mentioned the most obvious reasons for Disney to employ openly gay workers, or to host a Gay Pride day at the park, while the long-haired/bearded male community does not enjoy the same priviledges:
1) LAWSUITS and negative publicity - on a mass scale - that Disney *does not* want:
The GLBT {GLBTIP...etc. I know I'm missing some letters, apologies to anyone I left out; for ease of understanding, I am going to condense to 'GLBT'} community is known for being cohesive and outspoken in regards to their rights. They have repeatedly demonstrated that they are a very large, strong, intelligent, persistent group that does not shy away from media publicity. They know their rights, and they *will* fight for them, on a large scale. Disney does not want to be involved in any legal disputes and/or blacklisted by such a large and powerful group ~ not just by the persons who themselves are GLBT, by also by their families and friends. That equates to a significent percentage of the population.
Long haired males, by contast, do not have an organized group with which to galvinize such civil rights changes; put simply ~ Disney is not afraid of them.
2) REVENUE (i.e. $money$money$money$money$money$):
Again, the GLBT community is very large and very cohesive. If Disney is not friendly to them, they will not be friendly to Disney. Disney is a *huge* corporation, drawing revenue not only from their theme parks, but from numerous other merchandising as well. This includes, but is definitely not limited to: DVDs, toys, clothing, dishes, Halloween costumes, breakfast cereal/candy/other food items, toothbrushes, bedding/home decor, collectables, lip gloss, jewelry and watches (some of which is quite expensive), live shows (Disney on Ice), music CDs, paper party goods/greeting cards/wrapping paper, Christmas ornaments, lunch boxes, school supplies, alarm clocks, celing fans, ad nauseum --- there is even a Disney subdivision of houses that you can move into (IF you meet the stringent requirements!). You cannot walk through a general merchandising store, from Dillard's to Dollar Tree, without seeing a Disney-related item. Soooo... if the GLBT community deceided to boycott all things Disney related -- and remember, a lot of GLBT individuals/couples are now, or will be, parents -- that represents a huge present AND future loss of revenue. A very bad business practice, regardless of what company it is or what products/services are being offered.
In comparison, long haired males do not possess the numbers, in an organized and directed group, to affect such change. To Disney, long haired men are such a small percentage of potential revenue that they are not even a blip on the Mouse's money-making-radar.
(But I still *heart* you!)
It's time then to form a lobby for long haired men. Anyone interested in pursuing this?
An excellent post! G-d didn't end the world over men having long hair but he did flood the world due to Sodomy.
Long hair is an expression of freedom, it has nothing to do with promoting "family values". The bottom line is corporations love to promote conformist mentality (they are looking for slaves to do their biddig) in order so that no one challenges their power or authority. Corporate America is the devil. I'm glad you told me about Disney's practices. I will boycott all their goods and take down anything I am selling on the Internet promoting Disney. I believe marriage is between a man and a women exclusively. I reject homosexual marriage.
I guess your views are based on religion, but they don't make sense. Bill here is married to Larry, but I consider Bill to be my friend, and if being with Larry makes him happy, who are you to say it's wrong? And I'm straight, with a (female) wife and two teenaged offspring, but not religious, although I guess the latter is glaringly obvious.
Dear Mr. J.M.M.,
I have neither the time nor the patience to argue with your bigoted comments here; but I do suggest you get yourself properly educated on what homosexuality is, as well as isn't. You are doing yourself, your community, and your family (including your children) a great disservice by hanging onto injurious opinions such as what you just stated, above. A loving commitment between two consenting adults used to be outlawed in the US if a racially-mixed couple were to decide to get married... Do you agree with that bigoted view as well? If not, then what would the difference be between two consenting adults who happen to be same-sex?
And don't throw God into the equation here... Poor God, He/She has been blamed for all of humanity's stupid bigoted religious views in the past, if you check out history. Hitler claimed to be a Christian, too -- or have you forgotten that?
- Ken in San Francisco
Right on, Ken.
It reminds me of the words that Martin Luther King Jr used. To paraphrase what he said, I hope that one day we will live in a world where people will be judged solely by the content of their character.
My ideal is that all one day discrimination will end, and that no-one will be judged by the colour of their skin, or the gender of their partner, or their own gender, or the country they came from, or the length of their hair, or even whether, say, they ride a motorcycle, or any of the other irrelevant things that fools can think of.
All discrimination is essentially the same thing, and you are either with us or against us, us being those who would do away with it.
And another quote: "Ah, Love! could you and I with Him conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things Entire, Would not we shatter it to bits--and then Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's desire!" (Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, stanza XCIX, Fitzgerald translation)
While JMM is entitled to his opinions like everyone else is on this board, I am deeply troubled by his lack of compassion for gay marriage.
I think what JMM fails to understand is, is that while straight people are allowed to get married, gay people are not. In some states gay marriage is recognized while it is illegal in others. At least straight people have the "right" AND the "choice" to marry yet more than 50% of them get divorced.
There are many gay people who have been in long relationships for many years who would give their left arm to be legally married and be able to possesss all of the benefits that straight people are entitled to. Being merely a "domestic partner" does not allow the individual to make important decisions regarding someone's health and this is one of the reasons why gay people are so desperate to be accepted by everyone and to be given the right to marry.
I don't think JMM is necessarily scared; I think he is merely ignorant about what he does not know. I do not believe he has any gay friends because if he did, he would not have these closed-eyed/closed-minded beliefs. On the other hand, he wants to be accepted as a long-haired person yet is offended when he is not.
JMM, you can't have it both ways. You want to be accepted for whom and what you are; well, so do gay people.
Believe it or not, your doctor, attorney, your taxi driver, your former school teacher, your next door neighbor, the person you sit next to on the bus/train/subway, etc. may be gay. What if you found out one of your siblings or even your best friend was gay -- would you love s/he any less? I hope you wouldn't. God made us all different which is the beauty of having people look and act differently. It makes things more interesting.
I sincerely hope JMM, you broaden your horizons a bit and be more accepting of what you don't know. Gay people are like straight people except for sexual preference -- if you fear that a gay person would want to seduce you, you can relax. Gay men would not be interested in doing so -- they would perhaps want to be your friend but not go beyond being platonic.
I hope this closes the subject on a more positive note and perhaps give JMM something to think about.
For years Disney has called its employees "cast members". This term was chosen because under California law a movie studio (or other entertainment undertaking) can avoid discrimination laws by saying they want the "actor" playing a role (a member of the "cast") to look a certain way. Their approach was that when you entered Disneyland you were entering a theatrical production. Taken to the extreme, if they only want old black men picking up cigaret butts at Disneyland, young, white, or female applicants need not apply.
They apply the term "cast members" to all their employees, but the long hair rule is not applied to behind the scenes creative types, because simply, they need and want the best talent. If you are a great cartoonist or creator of computer graphics, they are not going to give a damn about your beard or hair.
And ditto about your sexual orientation. They provided domestic partner benefits long before it was common for large corporations to do so, because they wanted access to all the best talent. If you are behind the scenes they don't care what you look like, and if you are seen by the public and don't "look gay" (or look anything else) they couldn't care less.
My husband has a Tinkerbell statue on our mantle (you get that at 25 years) and he's had a thick beard the whole time. He worked as an engineer for their broadcast stations here in San Francisco, which included the city's top rated liberal and conservative talk radio stations. Few listeners knew the two stations operated out of the same studios and under the same managers and engineering types. Only the on-air personalities and the views they took were different. The bottom line is that Disney does what makes them money, and discrimination against longhaired employees will end the minute they think it is losing them money.
Discrimination against gay people and gay relationships is now illegal in California as well as being bad business. This came about because of people fighting to be the way that they innately are. If longhairs who feel long hair is an innate part of their identity never stand up to make that fight, they will never get full civil rights, because rights are never handed out on a platter. The fight begins as a massive sales job - you have to sell the public on the concept. Only then will legislation, court decisions, and worries of social disapproval begin to work in your favor.
From what I've seen of the longhair community, most longhairs would rather do their own thing and have little interest in banding together to fight for their rights. This has not always been so - longhairs were very active in putting a stop to the Vietnam War in the late 60s and early 70s. The military draft was used as one weapon against us, and many of us joined with others who had their own reasons to put an end to the war and ultimately the draft itself. The war ended, the draft ended, but so many people walked away, and the job was never finished. Most longhair rights cases are based on decisions in the 1970s, and that is why we are left with a fully inadequate set of protections and one that is spotty at best. This abandonment of the fight before it was finished is what left us with such legacies that the South, and the state of Texas in particular, remain under court decisions that are highly unfavorable to us.
Will we ever band together to put an end to legalized bigotry once and for all? Probably not. Longhairs are way into doing their own thing to organize. Every characteristic on the "do not discriminate" list has active organizations that have fought to get their constituency there. To date I know of no political organization that has ever been formed to fight to end discrimination against longhairs.
Bill
When you're right, you're right. Couldn't have said it any better.
Very informative post, Bill -- Thank you! The issue is not *solely* to end discrimination against long haired males; the bigger issue is to end gender discrimination altogether.
