new thread
Men that want to grow their hair and beard long need to be protected from discrimination. Men with long hair can't even defend. I mean, gay have rights, ethnic groups have rights, handicapped have rights, but men with long hair or long beard have no rights at all. If you have a comment or an idea to solve the problem, you can say it.
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First, let me say that I love my hair. I can't imagine ever wanting to cut it off. I admire other men who also have long hair, and have no qualms staring at other mens' manes when the opportunities present
themselves. Admittedly, the very thought of ever cutting my hair off - either willingly or by force - sickens me. However, hair is hair, it does grow back, and, if faced with the right circumstances, I would cut mine.
While I commend the passion you feel for your hair, and your interest in helping other men keep their's, I cannot, in good concience, support your plea for protection from discrimination. That said, I'm going to be blunt with my opinion on this matter regarding civil rights, public awareness - and acceptance - for longhaired men:
It is absolutely without merit, and a foolhearty attempt to gain respect for something that, for all intents and purposes, is little more than a fashion statement. Many of us might like to believe that it also shapes our identity. The fact is, who we are does not change based on the length of our hair. We might feel ugly with short hair, but we are still the same people.
Every time I hear someone else proclaim a need for protection against discrimination of men with long hair, I can't help laughing; not at anyone who might present it, rather the very idea itself. I very much value and appreciate what this community has to offer, but I don't need the support of hundreds of people - or some kind of civil rights act for that matter - to help express myself. I do just fine by that on my own.
I'm blessed with being employed with a company who supports and promotes cultural diversity. Because of their open-mindedness, I'm allowed to enjoy my job regardless of the length of my hair. Should their dress code ever change, I will gladly cut my hair if it means keeping the best job I've ever had. My hair may look good, but it doesn't pay the bills.
Hair is strictly a choice, and, as I said, can be altered at will when necessary. If someone's identity is so tied up in their hair or beard that the possibility of having to change it is something of a threat to them, then they have much bigger problems than someone possibly discriminating against them for it.
"Should their dress code ever change, I will gladly cut my hair if it means keeping the best job I've ever had. My hair may look good, but it doesn't pay the bills."
FINE, THAT'S YOU! I UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR JOB MAY MEAN A LOT TO YOU AND "PAYS THE BILLS" BUT IF YOU HOLD ONTO SUCH AN ATTITUDE, YOU WILL ALWAYS BE THE LOSER, BECAUSE YOU GAVE IN AND FELL VICTIM!(BY THE WAY NO HARD FEELINGS HERE, DON'T THINK I'M RIPPING ON YOU!) NOW, YOU'RE PROBABLY THINKING, WELL NO, YOU'D BE THE LOSER, BECAUSE YOU LOSED OUT ON A GOOD PAYING JOB, RIGHT? BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I SAY..I SAY WELL MAYBE I DID LOOSE OUT, BUT I'VE STILL RETAINED MY DIGNITY AND REMAINED MYSELF!!
I'D RATHER LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE I LOSE OUT, BUT STILL RETAIN MY IMAGE, THAN GAIN, BUT LOSE IT.
Under the logic of just cutting your hair as a means to avoid what some here claim is just "Perceived discrimination" since you are "able" to change your appearance:
Then does an employer have the right to tell someone that is "Perceived ugly" to have plastic surgery, so that they conform to the employers image of the "right employee"?
Employment should always be a matter of merits and not characteristics, end of story.
Religious and cultural beliefs (or the lack of them)also "should" not be an issue for employment.
While I am a Jew and believe that we are not to cut the beard, I also believe that I am not to cut my hair....that's my religious belief...why should I have to "prove" to anyone what my relationship to my G-d is? Or any interpretation of my beliefs? There are some here that do not believe in G-d, and to them that is their beliefs...mine are no better than theirs...but also no less valid.
As for the terrible display in this thread of name calling...I'm embarressed for you. This is a forum for intellectual conversation and community sharing. It's pretty bad when we allow it to fall into such childish vernacular. All of our points are valid to each of us.
Until homo sapiens see each other as equals regardless of all these petty issues...there will always be some form of discrimination and ethnocentrics. I would personally love to see a group of long hairs and beards that are willing to stand up together to battle what we percieve as discrimination, but it won't be for everyone.
IMHO of course.
"First, let me say that I love my hair. I can't imagine ever wanting to cut it off. I admire other men who also have long hair, and have no qualms staring at other mens' manes when the opportunities present
So...it sickens you to even think about it, yet you'd do it if some boss or company man told you to. Am I the only one here who thinks you sound like a total nimrod here? Do us a favor and go away!
"While I commend the passion you feel for your hair, and your interest in helping other men keep their's, I cannot, in good concience, support your plea for protection from discrimination. That said, I'm going to be blunt with my opinion on this matter regarding civil rights, public awareness - and acceptance - for longhaired men:"
The fact is that discrimination is discrimination whether it's about race, gender, or long hair. A person should be hired based on his education, experience, abilities, and enthusiasm...not how long his hair is. No matter how someone tries to justify wrongdoing, no matter how someone rationalizes away an injustice...the fact remains that right is right and wrong is wrong.
"It is absolutely without merit, and a foolhearty attempt to gain respect for something that, for all intents and purposes, is little more than a fashion statement. Many of us might like to believe that it also shapes our identity. The fact is, who we are does not change based on the length of our hair. We might feel ugly with short hair, but we are still the same people."
That statement is an overgeneralization. For some, hair is more than just a "fashion statement". For some of us, most particularly ME, it is my cultural heritage. I am proud to be Cherokee, and I will always stay true to my Cherokee heritage.
Some people here are members of particular religions which require men not to shave or cut their hair. Others have their own inner being that makes them a longhair. Some are just not happy without long hair.
I'd never cut my hair. Period. My hair defines me and defines my heritage. It's not jus a fashion statement.
You are a F00L for posting such nonsense.
"Every time I hear someone else proclaim a need for protection against discrimination of men with long hair, I can't help laughing; not at anyone who might present it, rather the very idea itself. I very much value and appreciate what this community has to offer, but I don't need the support of hundreds of people - or some kind of civil rights act for that matter - to help express myself. I do just fine by that on my own."
Is that right? It doesn't seem that way to me judging by your senseless comments below. You say you can stand up for yourself, then you turn around and say if someone demanded you cut your hair, you would. Sounds to me like you're pretty weak! You are a C0WARD!
In my opinion, the Constiution gives us the right of LIBERTY. This very word tells me that we have liberty over ourselves and our bodies. What gives anyone, anywhere the right to tell anyone else how to have their hair...or that they have to shave...or anything else that affects our very own beings? If having long hair is a part of someone's pursuit of happiness, then it's wrong to tell someone they have to cut it.
"I'm blessed with being employed with a company who supports and promotes cultural diversity. Because of their open-mindedness, I'm allowed to enjoy my job regardless of the length of my hair. Should their dress code ever change, I will gladly cut my hair if it means keeping the best job I've ever had. My hair may look good, but it doesn't pay the bills."
You are a F00L. And a weak-minded follower as well. Do us all a favor and just cut it now and go the f*ck away! In my opinion, you do NOT belong here. You're a phony! Sure, you may have long hair, but you aren't a "longhair" by definition.
This board is for people who are on the inside true "longhairs". A true longhair, like me, will not cut his hair simply because some boss says so. A true longhair doesn't sell out his own personal beliefs for monetary gain. You have absolutely no integrity. I have ZERO respect for you. NONE!
"Hair is strictly a choice, and, as I said, can be altered at will when necessary. If someone's identity is so tied up in their hair or beard that the possibility of having to change it is something of a threat to them, then they have much bigger problems than someone possibly discriminating against them for it."
For someone like me, it's not a "choice". It's a huge part of my cultural identity. It's a huge part of who I am. It's a huge part of my family history. I am proud of my heritage and won't turn my back on it to make a few extra bucks!
For others here, it's a huge part of who they are either by religious affiliation or just their inner selves. You're just a poser, and not a true longhair, so I can't expect you to understand.
Do us a favor and go away. This board is not a place for you. People come here for genuine advice and support. As a person who has had long hair forever, I am glad to offer advice or even a simple bit of encouragement. I've even written entire letters to employers explaining how significant long hair is to us. You, however, are just some trendy guy who doesn't care if his hair is short or long as long as there's a few extra dollars to be made. You have absolutely NO integrity.
I, for one, will completely ignore any post you make from now on. POSER!
So, are you the owner of the board? If not, who are you to determine who gets to stay and who must go?
There are a couple different things that are very important to keep in mind. First, discriminating against someone for things they cannot change or did not choose (including race, religion, handicaps, culture/nationality or gender) is very different than discriminating against someone for things that they can chance or did choose (such as hair length, manner of dress, "body modifications" or personal hygine). Second, businesses exist to make money - and in most cases that involves attracting and retaining customers. In many industries, how the company's representatives present themselves can have a significant impact on the company's ability to do so.
In which case, if you feel that you are being discriminated against, and can demonstrate that wearing your hair long is a legitimate expression of your cultural heritage, you may have protection available under statutes against cultural discrimination. Same for people who have long hair for religious reasons - if they can show that this is a legitimate part of their faith, they can seek protection under the laws against religious discrimination.
Then they need to find jobs with companies that allow employees to have long hair. There are many out there. It may take a bit more looking to find one, but that is an option for them.
Choices have consequences. If someone chooses to have long hair and is not willing to cut it to conform with an employer's dress code, then their consequence is that they may have a harder time finding work. There's nothing wrong with that.
And, as I noted above, you could seek protection under cultural discrimination laws
No, he's someone who recognizes that he has responsiblities - such as being able to earn a living, and chooses to put a priority on being employable over being stubborn about his hair.
For example, my husband and I have an agreement - as long as we have the money to support ourselves, he can take as long as he needs to find a job that will let him keep his hair long. If, however, we find ourselves in a position where we're going to be unable to meet our obligations (i.e. house payment, untility bills, etc.), and he can't find someplace that will let him keep his hair, then the hair goes. That's what responsible adults do, you know - make priorities to help ensure they can take care of what they need to.
Actually, the Constitution doesn't give us the right of liberty -- that (and the pursuit of happiness) are mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, which, while an important document in that it created the United States as a separate nation, has no bearing on the laws of this country.
Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution GUARANTEE happiness. The Declaration says we have the right to pursue it, but it doesn't promise we'll obtain it, and the reality of the matter is, sometimes we don't get it.
No company has the right to FORCE you to do anything - they can only tell you that IF YOU WANT TO STAY EMPLOYED THERE, you have to follow their rules. If you don't like the rules, you're free to find a job somewhere else that has rules you DO like. That's part of the "pursuit" - if we're going to have happiness, we have to go out there and FIND IT OURSELVES, not expect someone to hand it to us on a platter.
You ask what gives anyone the right to tell you what to do with your body - well, what gives you the right to tell someone how to run their own company? Business owners and managers have rights, too, including the right to hire those people that they best feel will serve the overall goals of the company - and that includes determining who they think will best be able to represent the company. They are NOT allowed to discriminate against people for factors that the individual did not choose and cannot readily change, but everything else is fair game.
And what gives you the right to tell him that he can or cannot post here, or that he can or cannot have long hair? You tell him to cut his hair and leave this board, but you don't think someone who runs a company should be able to tell an employee to cut his hair or leave the company? There more than a whiff of hypocracy to your attitude here.
Which is about how much respect most employers have for someone who wants to cry discrimination over something like the length of their hair. In addition, each time someone tries to stretch the bounds of discrimination claims, it makes it that much harder for people who DO have legitimate discrimiation issues.
And that is your right - you are perfectly free to find employment at some place that doesn't require you to have short hair, or, as noted previously, you can pursue it as a form of cultural discrimiation. Just don't presume that your desire to have long hair means that an employer has to hire you, even if he or she feels that it will be detrimental to their business.
OOh, you called him a poser. Well. That's a serious charge there, isn't it?
Just because he chooses to accept responsiblity for his actions, and to recognize that his priority is being able to earn a living doesn't make him a "poser". It makes him an "adult".
In my own case, I know my husband could probably have gotten other jobs that would pay him more if he were willing to cut his hair for it, but we're able to make enough to live on with his current job where they let him keep his long hair. He's actually giving up "a few extra dollars" to keep his hair long. The only point at which cutting it would be considered is if he were out of work, we were unable to support ourselves, and he would be able to get a job that would allow us enough to live on by cutting his hair. I don't think that's being a sellout.
I'm sure that will completely change his mind on the matter. You're attention being so important, eh?
"So, are you the owner of the board? If not, who are you to determine who gets to stay and who must go?"
As I stated in my reply, I ASKED him to do us all a favor and go away. I didn't ask the board moderator or anyone else to ban him and not allow him back.
"There are a couple different things that are very important to keep in mind. First, discriminating against someone for things they cannot change or did not choose (including race, religion, handicaps, culture/nationality or gender) is very different than discriminating against someone for things that they can chance or did choose (such as hair length, manner of dress, "body modifications" or personal hygine). Second, businesses exist to make money - and in most cases that involves attracting and retaining customers. In many industries, how the company's representatives present themselves can have a significant impact on the company's ability to do so."
It wasn't that long ago when employers discrimated against people based on race, gender, or religious affiliation. Their arguments for discrimination back then were no different than yours are today. If you get right down to it, isn't religion a choice? By your definition, it is. No one is born to be a catholic, a muslim, or whatever else. They choose to be! So based on YOUR logic, it's okay to discrimate because it's a choice. Of course, you claim religion isn't a choice and discrimination against it is illegal anyway. However, explain why there are many cases of employers reprimanding muslims who choose to pray during business hours because it violates company policies against break times. Sure, the policies aren't legal when employees have to go to court against the employer, but that doesn't stop the harassment.
I have yet to see a company lose business because they have a long haired male employee. Have you? Employers can have the attitiude that they'll take money from longhairs but don't want them as employees. What a joke.
He//, even personal hygiene at times is based on religious faith.
"In which case, if you feel that you are being discriminated against, and can demonstrate that wearing your hair long is a legitimate expression of your cultural heritage, you may have protection available under statutes against cultural discrimination. Same for people who have long hair for religious reasons - if they can show that this is a legitimate part of their faith, they can seek protection under the laws against religious discrimination."
I have a great job and an employer who hires based on skills, education, etc...not hair or appearance. Also, it wasn't until 1992 that people officially and legally were afforded protections based on religious practices. There are no real legal protections based on "cultural" reasons.
"Then they need to find jobs with companies that allow employees to have long hair. There are many out there. It may take a bit more looking to find one, but that is an option for them."
That's like a white southerner in the 60s saying "them ni**ers can go find a neighborhood where they're welcome". The fact remains that discrimination is discrimination no matter how you try to rationalize it or justify it. An injustice is wrong regardless of what you hide behind in trying to justify it. Right is right and wrong is wrong. It's black and white...there are no shades of grey here.
"Choices have consequences. If someone chooses to have long hair and is not willing to cut it to conform with an employer's dress code, then their consequence is that they may have a harder time finding work. There's nothing wrong with that."
Yes there is. If a longhair is better educated and more qualified, then hiring some clean cut geek who is less prepared and less able is wrong. You can try to justify it all you want, but it's wrong!
"And, as I noted above, you could seek protection under cultural discrimination laws."
There are no such laws. There are laws about religion, gender, etc...but nothing about "culture".
"No, he's someone who recognizes that he has responsiblities - such as being able to earn a living, and chooses to put a priority on being employable over being stubborn about his hair."
No. He's a weak and conforming c0ward! He talks about how he's strong and won't be bullied...then admits if boss man says cut your hair, he's cutting it. Sounds like a weakling to me. Whatever happened to standing up for what you believe in? What happened to personal integrity? The almight dollar is more important to many people than pride in yourself and standing up for what you believe in. I think that's SAD!
"For example, my husband and I have an agreement - as long as we have the money to support ourselves, he can take as long as he needs to find a job that will let him keep his hair long. If, however, we find ourselves in a position where we're going to be unable to meet our obligations (i.e. house payment, untility bills, etc.), and he can't find someplace that will let him keep his hair, then the hair goes. That's what responsible adults do, you know - make priorities to help ensure they can take care of what they need to."
Well golly gee, goodie for you two. You're the last person I'd even consider marrying! You, like the original poser poster, have no personal integrity. Material possessions and keeping up with the Jones' is what matters to you.
You call yourself a responsible adult? I call you a person too weak to stand up for what you believe in.
Guess we're just different.
Oh...and without sacrificing my beliefs I live in 4,000 square foot house with five bedrooms. I have two cars and two motorcycles. I have everything I need and want. Not that material junk matters, but it's to illustrate a point to you that you don't need to be a weak c0ward to have a nice life.
"Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution GUARANTEE happiness. The Declaration says we have the right to pursue it, but it doesn't promise we'll obtain it, and the reality of the matter is, sometimes we don't get it."
Of course nothing can GUARANTEE happiness. It does, however, guarantee our RIGHT to PURSUE it. You can't arbitrarily decide what is a right and what isn't. You can't say one thing is justified in pursuit and something else isn't. No one gets everything they want and no one is happy all the time. However, no one should be denied anything that affects one's own being when it doesn't affect anyone else's liberties.
What's your point?
"No company has the right to FORCE you to do anything - they can only tell you that IF YOU WANT TO STAY EMPLOYED THERE, you have to follow their rules."
Then they are in fact forcing you to do something. They are forcing you to quit (or not be hired) or cut your hair. So he// yes they're forcing you!
"If you don't like the rules, you're free to find a job somewhere else that has rules you DO like. That's part of the "pursuit" - if we're going to have happiness, we have to go out there and FIND IT OURSELVES, not expect someone to hand it to us on a platter."
Again, you make no sense here a all. Why not change the rules? If the rules are wrong, why not CHANGE them? Do you have ANY integrity at all? Do you EVER stand up for anything? I don't think so.
"You ask what gives anyone the right to tell you what to do with your body - well, what gives you the right to tell someone how to run their own company?"
Isn't that what we do all the time? Whether it's discrimination or environmental regulations or SEC rules or any of a myriad of things, companies are told every day how to run their business. Again, your points are weak and without merit!
"Business owners and managers have rights, too, including the right to hire those people that they best feel will serve the overall goals of the company - and that includes determining who they think will best be able to represent the company. They are NOT allowed to discriminate against people for factors that the individual did not choose and cannot readily change, but everything else is fair game."
Whatever!
"And what gives you the right to tell him that he can or cannot post here, or that he can or cannot have long hair? You tell him to cut his hair and leave this board, but you don't think someone who runs a company should be able to tell an employee to cut his hair or leave the company? There more than a whiff of hypocracy to your attitude here."
My point is that this board is for people who are real longhairs. It's here for people who have real, honest, and true beliefs about long hair. People like the poser have no real relevance here. Neither do you.
And again, I didn't ask for him to be banned. I didn't advocate a forced removal. There's no hypocrisy at all. But again, I don't really expect you to understand.
Why does this guy even have long hair in the first place? If he has the atitude he does, he does longhairs a disservice.
"Which is about how much respect most employers have for someone who wants to cry discrimination over something like the length of their hair. In addition, each time someone tries to stretch the bounds of discrimination claims, it makes it that much harder for people who DO have legitimate discrimiation issues."
As I said before, discrimination in any form is wrong. You seem to think certain discrimination is justified and okay. We obviously differ in opinion here. ANY discrimination is a alegitimate issue. Period!
"And that is your right - you are perfectly free to find employment at some place that doesn't require you to have short hair, or, as noted previously, you can pursue it as a form of cultural discrimiation. Just don't presume that your desire to have long hair means that an employer has to hire you, even if he or she feels that it will be detrimental to their business."
Again, how is having a longhair detrimental? Are there ANY studies that show business suffers a negative impact from having long haired male employees?
And again, why should a person with long hair have to look around? What makes discrimination against a man with long hair "right"? Just because some business doesn't like it?
"OOh, you called him a poser. Well. That's a serious charge there, isn't it?"
If this weren't a moderated forum, I'd call you worse.
"Just because he chooses to accept responsiblity for his actions, and to recognize that his priority is being able to earn a living doesn't make him a "poser". It makes him an "adult". "
I love that phrase..."chooses to accept responsibility". As if the rest of us here choose not to? Again, where's the validity to your argument?
Last time I checked, it was children who should obey and follow the rules...even those that aren't fair. ADULTS are supposed to think and act for themselves.
"In my own case, I know my husband could probably have gotten other jobs that would pay him more if he were willing to cut his hair for it, but we're able to make enough to live on with his current job where they let him keep his long hair. He's actually giving up "a few extra dollars" to keep his hair long. The only point at which cutting it would be considered is if he were out of work, we were unable to support ourselves, and he would be able to get a job that would allow us enough to live on by cutting his hair. I don't think that's being a sellout."
Again, what you think and what I think are different. I'm not saying you're wrong. I am saying, however, that if being a longhair is truly a part of your inner beingand who you are, to be something else to to be something you're not. It's to be fake and phony...less than genuine.
"I'm sure that will completely change his mind on the matter. You're attention being so important, eh?"
I personally don't care what he thinks, writes, or says. I don't care what he chooses to do. My only point is that he's a poser. In my book, he's a real loser. That's all. He can think the same of me. Not like I care what he thinks. He probably doesn't care what I think. So what?
Quite right. He basically sounds like a shorthair disguised as a longhair. I can't believe what i've just read.
apparently anyone who doesn't measure up to your strict standards of dedication gets dismissed as a poser and is stonewalled here -eh? i had posted at one point that if MPB advanced enough i would cut... so i guess i've been pigeon-holed as a loser with no integrity. kinda explains alot of what i've been experiencing here. too bad i hadn't taken the hint earlier- i likely wouldn't have been here to read your poison words.
Ya, we're pretty serious on this board about keeping our long hair, that's why it's a "long hair" board and not just a "hair" board and "long hair" websites and not just "hair style" websites. Long hair takes a lot of committment and many years to grow so one has to be serious about it.
This may be an eye-opener for some who haven't seen this before but this is the reason why this board is here, to support other longhairs and give them ideas about how to successfully grow and CONTINUE to have long hair (and to realize that there are others who think like they do). It's an education about the reality of their choices...as a self-determining adult.
Those who think that this is just too extreme usually end up leaving with a smirk of disgust but it's just a different way of life/thinking and one has to wonder why they came here in the first place.
What I find ironic, however, is that someone can claim that another person isn't a "true" longhair, despite the fact that that person has spent the last 12 years growing it. That's like accusing someone who's spent their life as a Christian, who's questioning their beliefs and considering another path, not a "true" Christian. No one has the right to pass judgement on others, regardless of how they may feel about the issue themselves.
I have first-hand experience with what it takes to grow hair as long as mine (grin).
Hmmm... do me a favor, and check out the link below. Read up through October 28, and tell me whether the storyline is an accurate depection of how a person feels that their identity is effected by the length of their hair:
It's a web-based comic strip I read on a daily basis.
Please tell me where I claimed that you were not a "true longhair". I don't believe the intent of my post was to bash you but, rather, to explain the board and why some here feel the way they do.
The fact of matters in the faith community is that many Christians who have lived as Christians for all their lives are considered by many other Christians to be less than "true Christians" once they begin to question their beliefs (you don't believe hard enough-you don't have enough faith). This happens even if you don't question your faith but work in a field, have interests, dress or talk in a way that those other Christians don't like. But are they correct by the definition of the belief system that they adhere to? Their beliefs may say not to pass judgement but in real life that is what people do.
No one here is judging people by saying that if you don't grow your hair long then you aren't good enough. We ARE saying that this is a support board for people who really want long hair and for someone to say "I have long hair but I'd cut it tomorrow if someone asked me to or for a $8/hr. job", it seems strange and contrary to the views of most people here and the INTENT of the board. That's not judging people at all, get your analogies straight. Maybe since religion was brought up, "hypocrite" would be a more fitting term for some to use.
Not sure why you brought up religion again.
GAH!!! No, no, no, no, no!! I was not accusing you of calling me an "untrue longhair"! I am SO sorry for the misunderstanding! I was was simply referencing Rokker's comment to me.
You and I are absolutely on an even keal. A tip of me hat to you, sir!
Sorry, I was attempting to create an anology.