new thread
I'm applying for a job as a stock broker. Do you think I will get past the initial interview because I have long hair? There is no direct correlation between job performance and hair length. People are very ignorant though. Employers would rather hire a short-haired rap lover with a pierced eyebrow, a short-haired gay person, or a short-haired drug dealer. Furthermore, they would take a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow over a long-haired warrior with an IQ of 180. Every other group has protection from discrimation, except long-haired men. It's like men aren't allowed to be attractive.
Another thing that has disturbed me lately. Every girl I talk too hates long hair. Then, if one goes on match.com or other dating sites. The majority of girls list long hair as a turn off. In addition, it's hard finding a girl with long hair these days too. We have an entire world of women walking around looking like five year old boys. Maybe they can't handle it when a man looks better than they do.
Well, I'll probably have to get it cut again. This happened two years ago, when I was applying for a management job at Walgreens. They made me cut it, then I got fired a month later. So, it took two years to grow back. Now, I get to go through the entire process again.
I need some advice. I can't get hired with long hair and women hate it.
-Steve
And people wonder why I get so irate.
I really hope that sometime in your life, a short-haired gay person helps you out big-time, maybe even gets you a job, and you realize how silly you sounded when you wrote this.
Oh, the irony.
I don't think Steve really meant, literally, the examples he gave. He was just giving a comparison and his own impression on the level of discrimination against SOME longhairs, that he may or may never experience. As for the long hair in the interview?? If YOU are confident, qualified and likeable, the longhair won't even be an issue. If its an issue with you, people are more likely to pick up negative vibes from you. So don't cut your hair, pull it back or just keep it tidy, relax and have a good interview.
fcuking gays
One more excellent illustration of why confronting homophobia is still important.
Bless you, friend.
The interviewer didn't care about my hair. He told me I could start the job whenever I wanted. One has to make 250 calls a day for 2 months. After work one is expected to study for the series 7 exam. They offered me $6.50 an hour, while doing all this. I would have to relocate as well. Plus, they weren't going to pay for the exam, the books, anything. Basically, I would lose about 5000 dollars of my own money in a few months. Apparently, there is very little face to face selling involved. I would primarily be cold calling people in England. After one receives there license, the job is strictly commission based-with no medical. It sounds like becoming a broker isn't a very lucrative position anymore. There's too much competition, plus online trading, etc. Commission per trade is lower, and people realize the market sucks. In conclusion, the hair was not a concern.
First off, I have nothing against long haired guys. But I will say this: Having long hair does not make you any less OR MORE for that matter, better than anyone else. Also, if a company has a dress code (including hair length policies), and that company ENFORCES that dress code, there's NOTHING you can do about it. Don't get a lawyer, don't go to the press, don't demand "rights" or shout "discrimination". I know this due to what I saw locally where I live. A manager at a fixed base operation at an airport was taking applicants to fill a lineman position. One guy comes in with long and NAPPY looking hair, long beard. When he was told he'd have to be clean shaven, and get a haircut, he said he wouldn't, and would sue the business for discrimination. Well, the lawyers for the operation said there was nothing the guy could do to the company, due to the fact that a dress code, including a hair length and facial hair policy, was in place, and enforced. IT WAS ON THE APPLICATION! And no, women were not included in this, they could wear their hair as long as they desired. Needless to say, the company never heard from this guy OR his lawyer. If you want to work for an organization that stresses to it's employees, male or female, to put forth a certain image, then you as that employee must maintain it. Since this IS a free society, you may choose to disobey them, since they cannot FORCE you to look as THEY want you to look....but you'll probably be looking for another job soon. Simple isn't it?
Again, I have nothing against guys who wear long hair. If I could, I myself would. But my company does not allow it, and quite frankly, I make really GOOD money for me to decide to up and leave it for something else, that would allow me to wear my hair as long as I want. But I went the other extreme, and shave it smooth. There is no problem with that look either, but if I were told I couldn't do it, no biggie. I just let it grow some. If I as an employee can't hang with their policies, I look for another company that will. Again, simple isn't it?
I have seen pictures of guys here, who have BEAUTIFUL long hair, and I actually envy them. If I had my own business, I'd have no problem hiring them in the least. They take care of their hair, and portray what ANY longhaired person (male OR female)'s hair should look like. Jarko and Renaissance are two right off the top of my head that I can think of. But I've also seen pics of some longhaired guys (no names please), who should cut their hair IMMEDIATELY. And it's because of such a diverse look among longhaired men that there probably is a "discrimination" against longhaired men in GENERAL. It's a bad case of "good suffering for the bad".
I have nothing against guys who wear their hair long. I support them in fact. What I DON'T care for, is guys who want to raise seven kinds of hells because they think they are "discriminated" against, and want to demand "justice", when in fact, it's simply company policy. No, don't raise your "Freedom of Speech / Expression" shield to hide behind, because it's not bullet proof. It's simply a case of, "You don't like it? Go somewhere else" policies.
p.s. The statement about the gay people? Well, I'm personally straight, but I have nothing against a person's sexual preferences. The statement you made however, does not help your cause in convincing people that ALL longhaired men are ALL good and noble. You want your future employer to practice tolerance with your looks, but you yourself cannot practice tolerance to someone else who is gay, has piercings, tattoos, etc. Perhaps employers are not against the length of the hair, but the ATTITUDES that some longhaired men (you specifically) have, because, as I stated earlier, some longhaired men feel they are more special than other people. Something to think about...........
Like to ask this what you wrote was a lot to read...you must like hair rules in the work place.. why do you think short hair makes you work better
Actually, as I said, I don't care one way or the other about a company's policies (at least as far as hair length is concerned). And I don't think a person will work better with long or short hair. What I'm trying to get across, is that moaning and groaning about a company's dress code is just downright futile. There is NOTHING a person can do about it, legally or otherwise. If the company I am currently employed with allowed long hair, I'd start growing it out in a New York minute. My hair is extremely straight, so it would come out really nice, I think, long. But my employer however, doesn't endorse this look, so I have opted for the other end of the spectrum...I shave my head smooth. It is a look I also like, and my company has no problem with that. They just don't like long hair. I don't think having short hair, long hair, or a shaved head (in my case) makes you any better or worse. I just get irate when I hear people wanting to start some kind of petition, or march, or just downright complain because they don't agree with a certain company's dress codes and policies. I personally hope this guy can get a job with this interviewer, whom he is already judging without even knowing. If he really wants that job, and they say "lose the hair", it's his decision. Simple as that. If he doesn't like it, he can search somewhere else. Again, simple as that.
It's not futile at all. Some people feel obligated to fight an injustice, regardless of what other people think. There are opportunities for action, legally and otherwise. Choosing not to fight for something doesn't render the cause or efforts of others futile, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to say that they shouldn't do that.
Sorry, but I beg to differ. And as my first post earlier noted, there ISN'T anything anyone can do to fight a "no-longhair" policy in the work place. If it's part of a company's dress code, written on the job application form, and it's enforced, then there is nothing that can be done. As I said earlier, even a lawyer will tell you this. IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED WHERE I LIVE, AND I SAW IT FROM START TO FINISH! (Which incidently, didn't go 4 days if I recall). It's quite literally a battle you won't win. Period. Sure, you might feel obligated because it's what you believe in, and that's great. I don't have anything against that either. But it won't get you anywhere legally, at least not with the company in question, and the appearances that it wishes it's personel to uphold. You might as well try and make the sun rise in the west, and set in the east. Picket all you want, boycott all you want, petition all you want. It won't work! You call it an "injustice", when in fact, it's a choice that you alone must make. You wish not only society, but the private sector to conform to your beliefs. And as I said earlier, if I were told I could no longer shave my head, so be it. I let it grow, or I go somewhere that allows it. If my employer wishes to judge my skills based on my appearance, it's his choice. It may not be right morally, but we're not talking morals here, we're talking "You work for ME, here are MY wishes, take it or leave it." If I could grow my hair long, I'd make it happen. So don't think I'm discriminatory to men wearing their hair long. I envy SOME of them here.
As far as "opportunities for action" as you claim, let's just assume that you work for me, and I happen to just HATE guys with long hair. And let's assume you start waving your "Freedom of speech and expression" flags until they tatter to unravelling, and you are in fact successful in taking legal action to force me to let you keep your hair long. Then what? You think I'll have ANY respect for you after? I'd bird dog you like crazy, just HOPING you'd mess up in the slightest way, so that I can release you on something that I CAN terminate you for. And you can't very well call your lawyer to force me to let you back in, considering that you failed to do WHATEVER it was that I asked of you. You put the report I asked for on my desk at 2:05, instead of 2:00 like I asked? See 'ya! Again, it's not RIGHT, but there's just nothing that can be done.
The reason that you can't fight a "no longhairs" clause, is the same reason why you can't decide to wear blue jeans and a t-shirt, when the company wants you wearing dress pants, and a button-up shirt with the company's logo on it. If it's part of the dress code, your obliged to uphold it, and that's INCLUDING hair (head or facial).
If you wish to hear other examples of failed attempts of people who tried to get reinstated to their jobs, let me know. There are 2 more I can tell you about, and needless to say, their attempts were, as I said, futile.
Well, GUESS WHAT?!?! YOU ARE WRONG!!!
I am a firefighter with 21 years on my department. My department HAS a hair policy. I fought it. I won. I HAVE long hair. I HAD/ CAN HAVE a beard if I so choose.
My point is, it is never futile to stand up for something you want or believe in.
Ah, but you are not employed in the private sector either. You are paid by city / government.
I am a law student currently enrolled in Constitutional Law. So far, the law seems to refute much of what you say.
The 14th Amendment contains the Equal Protection clause which applies to the States...government and individual citizens. In fact, the amazing thing is that just a week ago we started our new section in the course...Gender Discrimination. Since we're just beginnning, I can't say I know enough yet when it comes to discrimination in the private sector. However, as I go through this section of the course, you can bet I'll find out. As I've written on the board before, I'm looking into the legality of this situation. At least with the public sector, the State can't sexually discriminate unless the discrimination goes to some important governmental purpose. The burden is on the State to prove so.
And also to note, while I have nothing against someone standing up for what they believe in, bottom line is this: If I owned my own private business, and I stated in my employee handbook, employee application, or whatever....in black and white, on documentation, that employees MUST have short hair, and clean shaven face, then there is NOTHING AT ALL you can do about it. You got off because you work for government. And I'm glad you did. But you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you wanted to work for me, and I have already established a hair policy in MY workplace. And it's NOT discrimination, because I am NOT discriminating against your race, ethnicity, religion, etc. I am an INDIVIDUAL who owns a PRIVATE organization, who CHOSES his employees, and expects his employees to RESPECT -->MY<-- company's dress code. And why can I get away with this? Because, while you may think having long hair won't make you work any slower or worse, having short hair won't either. And since my company wants to put forth a certain "image", whatever that image may be, my employees must abide by it.
Now government on the other hand is different. I won't even start to try and interpret laws there, because I don't know enough about how government employees can get away with "bending" certain rules and regulations, such as your case. Granted, I'm happy you won your case. Honestly, I am. But as I also stated, you wouldn't have lasted but a few days working for a private organization / individual. As I said, I've actually seen this transpire. So don't tell me I'm wrong, when I actually SAW it! lol It's the same as schools. I personally don't think a public school has the right to tell a kid how long his hair has to be, because, well, it's PUBLIC. Being public, it is funded by GOVERNMENT. But private on the other hand. Again, THEY decide what you look like, THEY enforce dress codes, and THEY can force you (or actually, your child) to wear their hair as they wish. Why? Because it's a PRIVATE SCHOOL, and YOU are PAYING for your child to attend it. If you don't like the policies, you pull them out, and send them to public. (which hopefully WON'T have a hair policy, in which as I said, I am against)
of course, "we" are paying for public schools too; we just have less choice over what is taught to children than private.
sorry, victor. i'm not sure how this relates to hair. i put my email so this won't start a politic thread on your hair site.
Take this whole argument, and replace the idea of having long hair with the idea of being in a same-sex marriage. It's all the same - you can cut your hair, you can get divorced. You can't change the fact that you want long hair, and you can't change the fact that you want to be married to someone of the same sex. Does the fact that it's company policy make it acceptable?
It's acceptable because it is a POLICY that a PRIVATE FIRM has. Period. THEY make the rules, and you have to abide by them. Since you don't own the company, you have to abide by them. THAT is what I'm trying to tell you. Whether it's morally right or wrong, whether you like it or not, that's how it is, and it is LEGAL. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face about how you THINK it's wrong, how you THINK it's immoral, so on and so forth. But if you agree to work for someone, and that someone says you have to look this way or that, then you are obligated to uphold his wishes, since he IS the one signing your paycheck. As I said, government positions are somewhat different, and I just don't know about the federal laws with regards to hair (self expression, etc.) PRIVATE FIRMS / COMPANIES / ORGANIZATIONS on the otherhand aren't bound by near the same regulations and rulings as government installations. And maybe I just don't see your point, but the attempt to compare same sex marriages with long hair is like comparing apples and oranges.
I will not reply any more, as I don't wish to start what I hadn't realized to be such a long winded thread. Bottom line folks, I've seen this happen on 3 occasions, all of which occured in privately owned companies. All 3 failed miserably in their attempt to have "freedom of speech and expression" granted them. Generally, private firms are only obligated to not discriminate against handicap, race, religion, ethnicity, deformity, or military background. Having long hair does not fit into ANY of these categories and NOT considered discrimination (exept perhaps where religion might come into effect, or in the case of Native Americans - which I have nothing against in the slightest). If I, as your employer, ask you to cut your hair, then you must. The only way you MIGHT be able to get away with it, is if I failed to mention this before you hired on (assuming you didn't have long hair when you applied), or I didn't put it on the application, or in the company's policies and / or employee handbooks (where in most cases, physical appearance and dress code are outlined.)
I wish the best to you all, but that's just how it is. Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but how many people have already come through here saying they were forced to cut their hair, and why didn't THEY start some kind of hoo-rah to have it stopped? Maybe because they knew it couldn't be fought? Something to think about.
RIGHT ON!! Glad to hear!!
Just out of curiousity, did your battle involve the courts? If so, can you tell us what happened?
I was a call member for 15 years and had long hair all that time. I became full time and was told to cut my hair. They showed me the written 'policy' they came up with. (I assumed, just for me) They asked me to sign it. I refused. Then, they said I would be terminated if I didn't comply.
I have long hair, in part, because of religious beliefs associated with my Indian upbringing. I told them that, and if they were looking for a legal battle, I would certainly grant them that wish. They checked with the town's legal counsel and he informed them they didn't have a leg to stand on from a legal standpoint. So them they raised the issue of safety, i.e; the air masks we use wouldn't make a proper seal with long hair in the way, the hair would burn, etc. So we went to a 'show and tell' session with their legal counsel present and me representing myself. I proved beyond reasonable doubt that positive pressure masks would provide protection even if hair DID get in the way of the sealing process. I also argued that I had never had an incident involving a sealing issue in the past 15 years as I was carefull to observe the proper wearing of the equipment. Bottom line was I didn't want to die anymore than they wanted the liability of my death! Then they addressed the 'hair burns' issue. I presented the fact that I was have been a professional welder since I was 18 with no incidents of getting my hair on fire. I presented many facts about my trade, including the way welding sparks are continually showering a welder, especially when welding over-head.
In short, their legal counsel told them to drop the whole thing, and if they DID decide to pursue it, he would not be representing them. They DID have valid concerns, but only if safety procedures and S.O.P.'s were not followed, which we ALL are supposed to follow. I think it was mostly an issue of 'He doesn't conform', and one of the deputies is a control freak.
After this initial issue was resolved, my hair wasn't much of an issue anymore except for occasional good natured ribbing and teasing, which I have no problem with. After all, I AM a bit apart from the 'norm', and it's to be expected. If I took exception to this kinda thing, then I SHOULDN'T have long hair. Or I shouldn't be a firefighter!
The deputy who's a dickhead, continued to harrass me for other things, just because it's what he does to everyone, but I usually end up making him look like an ass at the right time, so what goes around comes around!
Hope this answers your question.
...for answering. You should be commended for maintaining such a strong will in those hard times. I actually did some research after I responded to "Bald by Choice" in this string and I unfortunately found some dissappointing news. Here's some news you might find interesting:
I found that the gender discrimination cases concerning men with long hair in the work environment seems to be governed by Title VII, a congressional measure which states that an employer cannot discriminate on the basis of sex when it comes to obtaining and maintaining employment. However, and this is the unfortunate part, almost all, if not all, the Appellate Courts in this country have read Title VII to NOT include dress codes and grooming and have explicitly stated that employers can discriminate against men for their hair length, with no such rules for women. It seems the same goes for a "no beards" company policy and a mandatory necktie policy only for men.
I don't know how familiar you are with law, but the Appellate Courts are the middle level courts, Disctrict Courts are the low level courts, and the U.S. Supreme Court is the highest court in the nation. The U.S. Supreme Court has not explicitly ruled on this issue because it seems to have chosen not to hear any of those cases on appeal. What does this mean? It means that the District Courts that are under these Appellate Courts must follow their ruling. It's unfortunate, because I read a case involved in a N.Y. District Court that ruled that hair length discrimination against a man DID violated Title VII and that hair length is sufficiently bound up in the right of personal liberty to allow men a hair-length choice. I thought, "yes! this court is on the right track!" But, the Appellate Court above this N.Y. District Court later reversed the District Court's decision.
I know you said religion was part of your cause, so that might be a safety blanket. But it seems that unless you have a specific religion like yours that calls for long hair, the odds are against us since employers seem to be free to discriminate against men for hair length under Title VII. I think something you said really hits the nail on the head, though; and that is that you shouldn't give up and stop fighting for something you believe in. Also, my research was just a very quick look at what's out there, so maybe there are other laws to argue when it comes to this issue, and maybe there's more out there I haven't seen yet. There also might be different ways to attack the issue under Title VII, although it seems like an uphill battle under Title VII.
Anyway, thanks for the response, and I'll keep everyone posted if I found anything more out on this unfortunate issue.
will you please answer this.....why do they have hair dress codes......the people who make the rules why dont they have feelings for others..they make these rules to be ass holes
Did you say the majority of girls list long hair as a turn off? Well, that certainly has not been my experience! In fact, the longer my hair gets, the more positive attention I get from women. When I was short haired. It seemed to me that I was mostly invisible as far as women were concerned. But, now that I have long hair, LOTS of women smile at me, strike up conversations with me and flirt with me. For example, just the other night I went out to see a local band. There I stood, on the edge of the dance floor, surrounded by lots of short haired guys. Then a girl who I did not know, just walked right up to me, and without a word, grabbed my hand and pulled me right out onto the dance floor. Was it just a concidence that I was the only long hair and that I was the one she chose? I don't think so!
There are a lot of women who like long haired men, and probably as many who don't care much either way, so don't worry about that. There aren't enough long haired women around either, but you do see some, and if you keep on looking and asking, you might find the right one for you.
If you go to the interview looking smart, sounding professional and confident, with your hair long but tidy, it might not become an issue.
If it does come to a straight choice between work and hair, then it's your choice, and only you can make that choice.
You sound really pissed off at the moment. Hopefully things will improve for you, but you need to go looking for your own luck, it does't often come looking for you.
Many good employers can be surpizingly tolerant of "unusual" dress or appearance so long as it is neat and tidy.
For long hair, a ponytail will often be acceptable.
Sometimes though, you may encounter a bigot or whatever who "marks you down" for having long hair.....In which case, you have had a lucky escape!
Good luck, be yourself....and don't worry!
Having had long hair for 12 years and being a professional for the last 10, I am very familiar with the self debating you are doing. My hair is a part of me and it would take a HUGE raise for me to cut it for my job, but that is up to the individual. Your intelligence and professionalism is evaluated by others examining many factors, some of which (like hair length) have nothing to do with your abilities. Have no doubt, there are some employers who will think less of you for your hair choice, just as there are employers who will think less of you because of your accent, color, or choice of neck-tie.
I feel that long hair on a man is bold. A possible indicator of a free-thinking person, someone who is not afraid to try something. The question is, do you want your future to rest in the hands of a company who always looks for the status-quo? A company like this will be more secure, but they will never lead the pack. It takes both kinds, so do you want to be a sheep or a wolf?
As far as the women go, I have found that the hair is an asset. To find a professional with long hair, the women go crazy. They found a fantasy... a bad boy who can survive. As far as the women who say men's hair is gross, they tend to want a life style that is not congruous with my dreams. I think the secret to happiness is to be comfortable with yourself; and in time you will find your self in relationships with people you like and respect, both personally and professionally.
As for the women and employers who don't like you... let them go their way in search of the same-old-same-old. In the long run, it would not have worked out.
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You took the words right out of my mouth bro. Imagine the guts I had to have to show up at work Thursday 2 weeks ago to turn from :
http://ca.geocities.com/hairryharry/before.html
to
http://ca.geocities.com/hairryharry/after1.html
in the accounting department where i work without advising anyone beforehand (I'm one of several accountants working there). Last week end I had a couple of female co workers come up to me wanting to feel my hair and genuinely congtratulating me on my new found youth. The big boss said my hair was fine by him as it was "neat looking"
Self assurance is the key to success no matter what the goal, including growing long hair, be it in 1 day as I did it, or in due course; from 18 months to ...eternity