new thread
In a recent responses to a post on getting the ends of long hair to be straight, one person said
AVOID SILICONES
another said
USE FEIZZEASE it makes hair look like glass -- yes, contains silicone, like glasss.
Does silicone damage hair? Please explain. And if it damages, why is it in so many products?
Regarding the straight question, in my experience it is impossible to get curl out of hair completely without damaging it. One can taime curl but setting hair on large rollers, paradoxically. That will make it smoothe, but a little curle remains.
Druid
Hi Jim,
Before I answer your question, I'd just like to put my quote into context. I said 'avoid silicones' (lowercase) unless you use a clarifying shampoo.
Silicones in and of themselves are fine. They can be beneficial, and can make your hair look and feel quite silky, shiney, and healthy.
The problems occur when silicones build up on your hair, 'clogging' the cuticle of the hair, and damaging it. Silicones can also cause your hair to become dry looking or even frizzy if they build up on the hair shaft.
Using a clarifying shampoo is an easy way to ensure that you get the benefits of silicones without suffering the potential damaging effects of build up. As I stated below, Abba's Molasses and Baking soda shampoo is my favourite clarifying shampoo.
Does this answer your question?
My experience with silicones was that they made the strands of my hair very strong, which was good, but the strands lost every last bit of their slipperiness, so every tangle had to be broken out! I have curly hair so I get lots of tangles. Therefore, the silicones had to go.
This is a very controversial subject. Currently people seem to be about 50/50 on whether silicones are good. There are a number of ways to look at it.
Pantene I believe was the first product to use silicones in order to produce a two in one product that conditions and shampoos at the same time. This was immensely successful and popular (is that redundant?) and has been copied by nearly everyone else. Silicones are used in many products for one simple reason: they work. However, it's not as simple as that. There are many kinds of silicones. And they have various kinds of interactions with other products.
I liken it to Rain-X. This is a product that you put on your windshield to keep off the rain. It works great when it works. With properly installed Rain-X, wipers are virtually not needed. However, not all wipers are compatible with Rain-X. If all works well, the windshield becomes slippery, and rain quickly slides off. However, if all does not work well, the wipers grab the Rain-X coated windshield producing a terrible shudder as they sweep across.
I think the same thing happens with hair. Sometimes it works wonderfully, working miracles to detangle hair. Other times, as with Bill, it's counterproductive. It probably depends upon hair type as well as what other products you use on your hair.
Properly used, silicones should be rinsed out thoroughly. In fact, some sources claim that the more thoroughly you rinse, the better the silicones work.
GP mentioned that silicones are OK if you use clarifying shampoos on the premise, I think, that all the silicones must be removed between applications. I don't think I agree. Clarifying shampoos can be very harsh, stripping away more than you want stripped away. This can in itself be damaging to the hair.
Hi Victor,
I'd just like to comment on the shampoo issue.
When I suggested a clerifying shampoo, I wasn't suggesting sulfuric acid to strip the slilcones from the hair. I suggested clerifying shampoos, and spicifically Abba's shampoo. True many shampoos can be harsh, especially those bought in supermarkets and drubstores, but most are quite good, and if you read the lable on the bottle, you will find that most instruct you to use them only once or twice a week. And if you live in an area that has particularly hard water, a clarifying shampoo is even more beneficial.
I never said silicones were bad, just to clear that up. They are very useful, and will make your hair look and feel quite healthy. BUT over time, they will build up on your hair, and in the cuticle of the hair shaft causing damage. Also, the way in which the sislcones are dilivered to the hair will affect how your hair will respond to them. Some silicones are mixed in an oil based product, some are added to shampoos or conditioners, some are in hairsprays and laquers, etc.
Another thing to remember is that the quality of the products and their ingredients will affect your hair as well. The reason store brands are often less expensive than salon products is that they use lower quality ingredients, and are formulated to appeal to every hair type by adding waxes and oils that will make your hair lood and feel good, but are actually 'sealing' the cuticle which will keep moisture from getting into the hair where it is needed and in time will cause more damage.
Please, don't think I'm picking on you here, but you stated a number of things which are frequently stated, and I've never received a satisfactory explanation for them. Perhaps you can help.
I don't understand what where you get a shampoo from has to do with what it does.
Could that be because they are damaging? Once a week on yard-long hair is about 300 washings.
I wonder. What is it about a clarifying shampoo that would help a hard water situation? My impulse would be to suggest lowering the pH.
I don't think I believe this one. I know I'm in a small minority with this viewpoint. However, I've never seen any evidence to back it up. Also, where exactly is the damage, and what is the nature of the damage? I've never heard any particulars about this one. I think it's because it's just speculation.
Who is determining the quality of the ingredients? I've found that if you compare a battery of salon products to a battery of store-brand products, you wind up with basically the same pool of ingredients. Unfortunately, with both salon products and cheap brands, names of products are frequently listed in such a way as to make them seem special in some way. Aveda products, for example, tend to list a plant with every ingredient. Many of them are really a stretch, e.g. ammonium lauryl sulfate (coconut). To be fair, I'll also list a store-brand product that does the same thing: Citre Shine, made of essences of every citrus product known to man. Yeah right. Try mixing the oils of all the citrus fruits you can get your hands one and applying that to your skin. It will dry out very fast.
What's wrong with any of this?
I've heard this argument so many times I've lost count (not that I was ever counting). What's the supposed healthy alternative? Treating with jojoba oil, coconut oil, etc. Whatever, it's still an oil, and oil does not mix with water, so you're sealing out water this way as well. What's the difference?
On the surface, these arguments seem to me to be propaganda on the part of the salons, to convince people that their higher prices are merited in some way. I'd like to see some actual studies that did controlled comparisons between products. Even informal ones, like the ones Karen does are good. I'm just tired of reading all the propaganda and trying to make some sense of it all.
Hello Victor,
I don't feel picked on. I don't think you are just being argumentitive, but are, rather, honestly discussing the topic.
I feel I should explain whereof I speak.
I have been wearing my hair long since I was about 15 (I'm 35 now), usually at about shoulder-length. Currently my hair is to the bottom of my shoulder blades, and I intend to let it grow much longer. Over the years my hair has been in very good condition, and in very poor and damaged condition. This gives me first hand experience as a long haired guy -albeit not as long haired as many, or most on this board.
Further, I am part owner of two salons. I am not a cosmetologist. I am an owner. And although we do sell salon products, and make a nice profit doing so, (our profit margin is not as great as for drugstore brands though), our reasons for promoting salon products is because we absolutely believe they are superior to drugstore brands. Because this is a business to me, and not a career, profit and cost effectiveness is extremely important to me. There are some less reputable salons who promote salon products, but use the cheapest discount brands they can find, in their salons, just to make more money. If I just wanted the money, I might do this too, but when we opened our salons, we specifically included in our mission statement that one of our prime reasons for being in business was to promote healthy haircare (I'm paraphrasing here), and part of that is to help our clients to restore their damaged hair to a healthy condition.
Now I'll try to respond to your statements.
Most salon lines sell their product only in salons or 'approved' beauty supply stores. If you find them in your local grocery store, or drugstore they are usually diverted, or even counterfeit, and the professional lines will not stand by them. Conversely, you will almost never find store brands in your local salon. And since I, as well as many others, believe there is a difference in how well professional and store brand products work, where you buy the products does have something to do with what it does.
No it's because that is all that is needed. Referring, (yet again), to my favourite clarifying shampoo, Abba, it is extreamly gentle. Abba's products are all vegan, and produced without any harm to animals, and with the least impact to the environment as is possible. You could use their clarifying shampoos every day and recieve no more damage to your hair as with any quality shampoo. But there is no reason to use a clarifying shampoo any more often.
In the last city I lived in, the water supply contained more calcium and lime than in most areas. Some communities have a high sulfer content, and in other areas other minerals are present in high concentrations. This is what I meant by hard water. Not everyone in these areas have water softeners. Many people who live in areas of harsh water conditions will buy their drinking water, but will bathe in the hard water. In areas that have hard water, a clarifying shampoo will help to remove the mineral deposits that will build up on the hair. Hair that have mineral build up will often look dull and will be quite lifeless. It can adversly effect hair colour, especially if you dye your hair. And sometimes the hard water will damage the cuticle of the hair and keep it from lying smooth as in healthy hair.
There are many studies developed by various product manufacturers. Some keep these studies as company secrets, others will make them available upon request, and others will reliese their findings only to parties they deem appropriate. I'm sure there are other independent studies of haircare products, and their ingredients. I'll leave it up to you to scout out these reports.
As far as damage goes. Even if you don't use any product at all on your hair, and if you were to not even wash your hair, sebum, the naturally occuring oily substance that your scalp produces at the root of the hair shaft, will build up, and along with the dirt that will combine with the oils will damage your hair. Of course, no one is going to let their hair stay this grimey. But the point is that anything can damage your hair. Silicones don't just disappear. You have to wash your hair to remove silicones, and if your use silicones every day, as many people do, they will build up, and you will need a clarifying shampoo.
Although silicones can aid in smoothing the cuticle, when you brush your hair, or braid or ponytail your hair, or even from every day wear, the cuticle can and will become 'ruffled'. This allows the sisicone as well as other 'stuff' to get into or under the cuticle. If you re-apply silicones, perhaps in the form of a hairspray, the silicone becomes trapped in the cuticle. (I realize I'm not explaining this as well as others may ba able to, but I'm sure you will grant me some leeway). Can silicones contribute to hair's damage? Yes. Can the amount of damage they contrubute to be alleviated? Yes, with the use of clarifying shampoos. Should you avoid the use of silicones? You have to decide for yourself. I use them, but I also use a clarifying shampoo once a week. My hair is healthy and looks and feels silky and soft -even though I try to make my curly hair lay straighter, (another issues I won't get into here).
Yes, many of the salon brands and store brands use the same ingrediants. This is one reason many people think there is no difference between them. And, in fact, many of the store brands and professional brands are manufactured in the same labs, but to the specifications of the product company. The quality and proportions of the ingrediants used can differ greatly. I'm sure you've heard terms such as 'hospital grade' or 'food grade' used in reference to chemical ingredients. These refer to the 'quality' of the ingredient. The drugstore brands usually use the cheapest and lowest quality ingredients to maximize profit margins and cost effectiveness. Professional brands usually use higher, if not the highest quality ingredients.
What's wrong with this is that not every has the same type of hair. Store brands try to be all things to all hair types. Something that can't be done too well. In recent years, some companies have formulated various products for various hair types, but are still manufactured with cheaper and poorer quality ingrediants. And it doesn't take a Wall St. analyst to know Procter & Gamble is more interested in satisfying their shareholders than making sure their customers have the best quality product money can buy.
The point was that store brands usually try to take short-cuts to making hair seem healthy. Coat the hair in wax and the cuticle will be nice and sealed and the hair will look smooth, feel soft, and you will think it's healthy. If your hair is damaged at all, and almost everyone's hair has some amount of damage, you need to address that damage. One thing damaged hair needs is moisture. There are various ways of delivering moisture to the cuticle. When you seal the hair, it may seem healthy, but it's not.
Occasionally, you will see a news programme do a 'study' comparing salon products and drugstore brands. Almost always, they give hairdressers products in un-marked bottles, and have them use them on their clients and then give their oppinions. This proves nothing. What do you prove from one shampooing? The key is to study the effect of various products on various hair types over long pariods of time, and taking into consideration all the variables present. Something most consumer reports do not do.
Propaganda or not, as a salon owner, and as a person who has long hair who wants it to be and look as healthy and silky as possible, I am convinsed that salon products are much better than drugstore brands. And because professional brands are sold in salons you have the added benefit of having professional haircare experts available to help you find which products will be best for you. Also, I work hard for my money, and I don't want to spend more than I have too. If I didn't believe salon brands were the best bargain for what I get I wouldn't use them. Over time, salon brands are usually less expensive than drugstore brands, because they do more and do it better than store brands, and usually you will need to use less because they are often more concentrated than store brands.
A few short comments on this longrunning discussion:
Maybe the IRS could tell us the difference?
Yeah, I think it would take the IRS to sort this one out.
Wow, belief affects performance! Lots of people believe they are going to win when they go to Las Vegas. How do the poor casinos stay afloat?
What do vegetables, the ecosystem, and animal pain have to do with hair damage? Why is harming poor innocent vegetables good for hair?
Has anyone ever seen the pH of a shampoo listed on it? Or is one more apt to be sure he's getting a low pH by washing his hair in club soda (carbonated water)? You can get it in drugstores. I don't know about salons.
Isn't all hair lifeless?
In this day and age, folks only believe reports that have been put on the Internet where they are in the sunshine. Withstanding the scrutiny of others is what makes reports carry credibility today.
Of course not. Sebum is water soluble, so anything you mix with water will remove it. Including water mixed with nothing.
ROFL! Indeed! Citrus oil will destroy your nails, too. Try peeling an orange every day and see what happens to them.
How are we to know this is actually the case? I mean, the ingredients don't say "Perrier" instead of "tap water". When that is the case, I assume "tap water".
There's lots of different kinds of Pantene and Pert.
I've been sold salon brands that really sealed my hair and dried it out. Walgreens doesn't have a monopoly on this.
Right on!
Blind studies (unmarked bottles) is what a study to be valid must have. Using them proves something indeed - that the results aren't biased.
I'd agree. A study to be valid must run for a month or two. So, give people BIG unmarked bottles!
Oh, so they are more concentrated. And up to now I was being mislead to think they were milder! Gullible me.
You're quite the comedian, Bill.
Picking apart and misconstruing every point I was trying to make is quite funny.
But in case you are serious, I'll try to clear up some points.
A cosmetologist is licensed to cut hair, and perform chemical processes. One does not need to be a cosmetologist to own a hair salon. The IRS has no trouble understanding this. Nor do most people.
I have invested in the salons to make money. It's a business venture. My career has nothing to do with hair. I work as a furniture designer for a career.
Again the IRS understands this, they just don't care.
What word would you have had me use to express my firmly held conviction that professional products are better than drugstore brands,if not the word "believe"?
So sorry. Yet another one of my poorly constructed sentences. I was just offering some facts about the company.
In some salons, yes. In fact in our salon, we offer club soda, and other beverages to our clients.
Now you want to talk metaphysics?
I've never thought about the sun shining in the virtual world that is the internet.
This may be true, however not many of us live, or want to live completely chemical-free lives.
I am not familiar with Citre Shine. I suspect it is a drugstore brand, and you are proving my point.
I was wrong, I guess it DOES take a Wall St. analyst to figure this one out.
Someone got lazy and picked apart only part of that paragraph.
And their club soda is cheap too.
So stop reading all the commie, pinko, hairdresser leaflets.
That's enough proof for you, yet everything else is propaganda?!
You have a problem with something being mild, AND concentrated so that you can use less? Now who's falling for propaganda. You must use a whole bottle of shampoo every time. Make it your mantra, perhaps you'll make me very rich.
Well, I'll add my $0.025 (inflation, you know) to the discussion here and side with Victor. I've been using Pantene products -- shampoo, conditioner, gel, spray -- for over two years now. To my admittedly uneducated eye, my hair appears healthier than ever. More importantly, though, is that the guy who trims my hair agrees. In fact, he doesn't even bother to suggest their products to me, because he says those products won't do any better than I'm doing now.
Here's your long-term study, GP.
Steve
steveriley@planetarymotion.net
Another satisfied Pantene customer checking in. I switch to other products every once in awhile, but keep going back to Pantene. I've heard, also, that many hairdressers recommend *any* product with a high proportion of protein compounds as perhaps the most important choice when it comes to finding a shampoo that will keep damage to a minimum, and maybe do your hair a little good. Good nutrition and B-complex vitamins also tend to improve it at the growing end.
I use Frizz-Ease and find that it works but not nearly as well as it claims to. Hask Spray It Straight doesn't work very well either as a way to get my pony tail to hang straight rather than curling up.
I do the whole procedure inclding holding considerable tension on my hair while blow dyring it. After all the work, I get about 30 minutes of "great hair time" Then it's back to the curls!