new thread
On many posts, especially the ones where guys are asking "should I grow it out?", most of the members talk about going against societal norms and rebelling, etc. . .
My question is, is the "rebelling" against societal norms really that big of a deciding factor for you having long hair? Seeing as how long hair on men is becoming more mainstream, is our own long hair losing any of its charm for us? If the day comes when long haired men is the norm, I don't see a whole lot of you going out and cutting your hair, just to go against societal norms.
Just wondering. I think rebellion is overrated.
ThatBallGuy
Going against social norms and rebelling are not even related.
If you moved here from India and wore a turban then you would be going against the "social norm" because most people here do not wear those.
If you (as yourself) said I think that I will wear a pink polka-dotted turban just to piss my parents, etc. off then that is rebelling.
I have not seen much if any people here posting about rebelling. We try to encourage guys to grow their hair for the best reasons and rebellion ain't one of them.
Be careful how you read posts, many people can get the wrong impression just by hasty scanning.
Rebellion is to resist convention. Wouldn't choosing to go against societal norms be rebelling? The two can coincide but I agree it should not be assumed to be the case.
Consider the reason the parents would be upset, not due to the dear dotty headwear iteslf but because the other kids don't wear them. The possible parental discomfort comes from the child going against societal norms. The two are not the same thing but there is a close relationship at work.
Agreed about the rebelling, confused about the second part concerning best reasons. I for one will assist anyone interested in growing long hair. Encouragement by the board as a group should not be dependent on the grower's aim. Individuals may decide not to help based on intent but to use "we try" it sounds as if there is some generally accepted list of approved reasons for long hair when to my best knowledge there are not.
Again, agreed, close reading is important. It is one of my favorite things to do here. Thank you for being one of those whose posts invite such depth, Hair Religion.
Elizabeth
If one considers the word 'rebel' in the strictest definition of the word, then, yes, we are rebelling against the social norm. However, it is a rebellion only in that sense. Rebellion need not immediately qualify as something to be frowned upon. It is not necessarily a bad thing to do. The negative conotations come only from those who frown upon the person doing the rebelling.
(Damn, I almost confused myself with that one. Had to read it over a few times, to make sure my point was clear - grin)
Intention. What is one's intention?
To happen to be outside the social norm is not rebellion. To be outside the norm because the "norm" doesn't suit you really isn't rebelling either. But intending to be outside the norm in a manner that you know will cause a "flap" (or more) in certain people or maybe most people who see or hear of you, well, that is rebellion. Actions with an intended cause in regards to a specific idea (the norm).
There are several outcomes, reactions, targets, etc. that intended rebellion has. Depends quite a bit on who or what the rebellion is against. If the other girls at school all wear the bare-belly shirts and you don't as a rebellious statement against popular fashion will your parents be upset that you are not dressing like the other kids? Not from what I've heard. Or what if you wear the shirts like the others because you know your parents don't like that look. So much depends on the intention, situation and targets (if there is one). I'm not sure that a bunch of examples will make things clearer but it all comes down to the person (in this case growing hair) and their ideas about what they are doing. Their ideas and perspective can change as they go through life as often should be the case of growing up and then maturing.
There is a general concensus here on this. If a guy is growing his hair just to be a rebel then in a few short years (or less) when he is done being a rebel you will see him cut his hair. Why? Because he had lame intentions for growing his hair and when his reasons are gone then he has no more use for the hair he was growing. It wasn't for himself or to get long hair but to piss someone off, etc. Long hair takes a long time to grow and a certain awareness and outlook on it really helps even though it may not always be necessary. The time, patience and care that goes into a lifestyle with long hair isn't always compatible with ideas of rebellion against one's current circumstances. Those of us who have some time under our belts and are sincerely trying to impart some real helpful knowledge to guys just starting out or already along the way can see the folly of doing some things for the wrong reasons, usually because it just won't last.
Thank you for saying so, I like to think that I try.
Sorry, I know this is WAY off topic, but why do fat girls feel like they should be wearing these short, midriff-bearing shirts? I don't get it and I see it A LOT.
I mean, I'm all for personal freedom, but when you're dressing yourself in the morning, how can you think that bulge protruding out in all directions is attractive to men, which, AFAIK, is the major reason for wearing such a shirt. Maybe I'm wrong. I know nobody has a perfect body, and everyone should be happy with what they have...blah blah blah... I just like to there are ways to dress that exhibit one's better points and hide "problem areas."
It's not a weight issue for them as much as it's conforming to the current fashion that the other girls are wearing so they are not seen as outcasts. Some of it is advertising from the stores but since stores carry more stuff than just belly-shirts you can see that it's about people keeping up with their peers.
This is something that happens often with hair as well which is what we were talking about.
Now about conforming, I have seen a couple of posts in the past that have alluded to this mindset happening on this board but as I ponder it I don't really think that this is the case. This is a virtual and loosly knit "community" (more an exchange of info) where people mostly bump into each other now and then. They still have to live all of their life in their own real world community every day and most people who have found this board came looking for it which means that they already had an idea of what they are/would like to do and not just subject to the ideas of an already established community around them that they didn't really choose.
(Keep in mind that just because there are things that people in your community tend to do, this does not make them necessairly bad things, but it helps to be able to understand why people do what they do)
As one who grew hair, or rather cut half and grew the other side in consequence to increase the shock value, I exemplify the mindset of trying to flaunt the norm just because it was there. Your earlier stance, as I understood it, was that rebellion and going against norms were not ever related and now I see you do grant they can be related.
Very true. I am still wanting to horrify or nudge people's thoughts with my hair but the interest has lessened with time. I still will be sad when the short side catches up with the long though. Rebellion is fun.
Using a non-guy as an example, namely me, this will not always be the case. In more than one sense, the hair grew on me over time and I still have it though undecided why I have it. All the wrong reasons continue to this day, but yet here I am with long hair enough to be mistaken as a dedicated grower.
I continually think I had the lamest of intentions, yet here I am. Not every rebel is a lost cause.
Yet, some people have lucky hair that does stand up to years of ignorance about care. If they decide they want it in seriousness after all, they have the base to grow on. Thanks for putting in that those attiudes are not necessary, just useful.
Ah, but those times it does last, having helped someone despite the hesitations must be so rewarding.
Not only do you try but you succeed.
Elizabeth
They can appear to be related but the example of one moving to a community where one does not fit in is (outside the social norm) compared to one in a community trying to stand out in defiance (rebellion) shows the day and night difference between them.
Because one side (rebellion) can contain elements of "the other" side (being outside the norm) which does not contain elements of the first (rebellion), I'm not sure that you can call that related. I cannot be truely related to you if you are not related to me. I can be associated with you if you associate with me or someone can say that I am related to you if you become attached to a relation of mine through marriage but that is not really being related. One way relation does not work which is my point. A different word or way to describe it would work much better.
Ah, but not all rebellion is fun and in many cases can be a bit of a nightmare for both sides. Some rebellion may be/is fun and if it's fun and doesn't hurt yourself or others then why stop?
Well, this being an issue of males does not translate the same to females as women are more expected to grow their hair long in a plethera of styles than not and it has actually been a form of rebellion for women to cut their hair short...or at least half :)
No example covers everyone, they just illustrate general tendencies.
Just like smokers who live to be 100 while so many around them die.
Not much is necessary when you have exceptions.
I'm groovin' on you E!
It's certainly possible to start by being a rebel and then discover that you like looking the way you do. What am I rebelling against? What have you got! (Couldn't resist that one).
Reverend Erik, I am having fun because you are making me think.
How about the situation of the square to describe the relationship between social norms and rebellion? A square is always a rectangle while a rectangle is not always a square. This is not to say going against a standard is always rebellion (and it certainly is not) but that one can have an unequal relationship between two terms. To intentionally go against a norm for the sake of challenging that societal belief is rebellion.
My rebellion unfortunately has a natural conclusion of both sides ending up the same length because I have given up renewing the short side due to a preference for uncut ends. The long side has since hit maximum length and it is just a matter of time before the other does too.
Probably right, I'm rebelling by rebelling against rebellious cuts now. Funny thing is that after years of long hair an unusual length is not enough in itself, to my mind, to qualify as going against the norm. At my length it turns out to be so after all, even on a female.
Really needing to get back to that Halloween costume in creation and hoping my square example will still seem to make sense tomorrow after I am rested,
Elizabeth
For me, and I suppose for many others too, the only reason is fashion.
I think long hair on guys is not a rebellion factor anymore.
If was so at the end of the 60th and beginning of the 70th, and today even the HAIR story (from the musical) is loved by parts of the establishment.
But what is valid for Germany must not be valid for other countries.
I think male pattern baldness is a serious problem against male long hair in general, so if the norm is very short hair it can be neglected.
wolfgang
I am still growing my hair... it's around 8 inches now...
I have been asked: "why are you doing it? are you trying to be a rebel? cut it"
Well I think this idea is just ridiculous. Are you saying I am trying to "conform" to the image of a rebel by growing my hair out? You are not much of a rebel in that case!
And if you cut it to conform to what you think is mainstream or what others say then you are conforming to another image....
I am growing my hair because I like it, because I want to try it... and we'll see where it leads...
I'd say that long hair is one way of expressing a certain goal, rather than simply a form or expression of rebellion.
I don't have long hair to look rebellious, or as an act of rebellion. I do, though, use my hair to state that I like freedom and I like my natural body; and I refuse to get it cut because getting it cut makes me feel conformist, artificial, and ruled-over. In native American or certain Taoist societies, the concepts I described for long hair are common, and thus long hair isn't automatically rebellious. On the other hand, in places like the military, early 20th century Germany, or other places where conformity is demanded, short hair generally is popular.
"and I refuse to get it cut because getting it cut makes me feel conformist, artificial, and ruled-over. "
some people have short hair cause they LIKE IT, not to conform or be "artificial"
...I put "I" and "me," and not "you" or "people."
Notice how I didn't turn my statement into a dogma, but rather a statement-of-opinion of how I see things and what I think of long/short hair, thus explaining why I--and others who may think like me--like long hair.
Additionally, I was making a general statement; and I emphisised that the statement was general, rather than specific. There are exceptions for practical purposes (like climate), or because some hairstyles tend to have certain symbolic meanings or make certain statements in certain cultures (like short hair being rebellious for women during the start of the feminist movement), but that's what _I_ see them as: exceptions to what I generally see in societies.
Finally, I was describing society and culture in general, rather than individuals. For example, most societies/cultures we'd generally call free; and most where physical sustainment, religious belief, or housing depend on relatively undisturbed nature (like forests and plains), tend to encourage long hair for their members, with exceptions of course. This can be seen in history in many native american tribes (mostly before Europeans came), in Celtic Druid tribes, in lots of the "hippie" culture of the '60s, in early Korea, etc. It can be seen today in many environmentalist/anarchist activist subcultures, in neo-pagan nature-based religions, in many artists, and many practicing modern native americans.
Short hair tends to be found in societies which separate themselves from nature, which consider many natural behaviors and beliefs wrong or unlawful, which command conformity, which consider themselves exclusivily good, etc. In history short hair was common for slaves, many heirarchy-dependant societies (esp. monarchies), Buddhists (the monks shaved their hair off, even), Catholicism, empires, armies, violent tribes, etc. Today most professionals, capitalists, government officials, police, military personel, and monotheistic fundamentalists wear short hair, and often exclude and/or alienate those who don't.
Of course, history notes some exceptions, because many factors play into style and rules for hair that we will likely never be able to factor in, but this is the general trend I see. There will ALWAYS be exceptions, especially if you go on general statements.
It wasn't for me, and never has been. I started growing my hair in 1990, the day after I graduated high school. I was simply sick of having worn a crew-cut all my life, and felt it was time for a change.
My original goal was to just get it too my shoulders. Once that was met, I noticed I enjoyed the length, and couldn't bring myself to keep it trimmed, so I've just let it keep growing.
I'm flattered when people compliment me, and I ignore those who put me down. Most people just grab a quick glance as they walk by me, though, at which point I smile and give them a "hello!" nod.
Point is, if you treat it as something to rebel with, your attitude will reflect that. You'll be looking for excuses to tell people off. If you treat it as simply a self-serving desire to change how you look, your ability to interact with others remain relatively consistent from before you began growing it.
True, i agree, Thinking that by having longhair you are making some big political statement is not only cheesy but is wrong also. I mean come on! its just hair! its a bunch of dead stuff that grows out of your head! If you really want to change the world & influence people then it takes more than growing girly hippy locks!
Having said that, one reason i still have long hair is that it makes me look different which is esp important to me as i work in an office and being just another suit would drive me mental.
The main reason is because i love heavy metal music & associated culture surrounding it. (headbanging with a full mane is a lot of fun at concerts both in my band and watching other bands) I also feel it identifies me as an easy going guy, who is very sensitive and into arts and music, which i am. These are of course stereotypes but nonetheless are sort of true in a lot of ways.
Hope this makes as much sense to you as it does to me:)
KiwiDan
When I see long hair, I don't see rebellion or anti-conformity or any of that. To me, long hair reflects wisdom, intelligence, creativity, and a host of other positive words that I won't bother listing. I'm sure there are a lot of people with long hair who lack all of the above, but that's the impression I get.
When I see long hair, I seem to unconsciously invoke some sort of passion, I guess you could say. Just seeing long hair on a person makes me feel connected to them and to humanity for some reason. It makes me think about all the societal conditions in which people (men especially) have worn their hair long throughout our collective human history. For a person who generally has pretty mixed feelings about people, this is a powerful emotion.
As silly as that might sound to some people, that is the reason I'm growing my hair out. I wish to have that 'connected' feeling forever. Aside from being something I want, what my hair will eventually become is a tribute to those who have gone before me. Until then, it's just a shaggy mess that I love to look at. =)
For me - I'm not growing my hair to rebel - I think that's an external perception. I.E.: Some people think that people who grow their hair long are rebels.
Its about personal taste for me, I prefer long hair. I've wanted to grow my hair since I was 8 years old - I'm 25 now and 17 years is a bloody long time to wait!
Its not that its overrated, I just dont think its really the reason people grow their hair.