new thread
hello,
I live in San Diego. I have discovered, as a result of my job search, that too many companies have dicriminatory dress codes. What I mean by this is Women are permitted to wear hair long, short or indifferent, and men must have a short "standard mens cut".
Why is this kind of discrimination permitted? I keep my hair clean, well kept, tied behind my shoulders, I'm even willing to wear a hairnet where required.
Opinions greatly appreciated, reply to list or by e-mail.
-Beau
private companies are given quite a bit of leeway with regards to dress codes. long hair on men isn't considered a 'civil rights actionable' area... that is, discrimination cases concerning long hair on guys are almost always dismissed. long haired men are not looked upon favorably- considered to be thieves, druggies, unreliable-- general lowlifes. many longhairs are just that. many people will see your long hair and think you are bad news. you say you are starting a job search; then you are at quite a disadvantage- no glowing references to your work ethic & reliability. for you, the easiest route to employment is to get a haircut. barring that, you can intensify your job search until you find a place that'll take you as you are- then establish yourself as the best worker they've ever seen. there's no use getting upset about the discrimination- it'll probably not go away.
what kind of work are you looking for?
I could not agree more with what John has written. Interestingly, the same exact issues about long hair discrimination were relevant when i got out of college in 1981. And here we are eighteen years later, and the same discrimination still exists. It is unfair. When I started out as an accountant, I bit the bullet and cut my midback length hair. The only one who seemed to be happy about my businessman' taper was my parents. Eventually, six years later, I left the accounting firm, and I went into teaching. My salary, while decent, isn't as lucrative as if i became a CPA. But now I have peace of mind, a better diposition, and I can look any damn well I please. (My hair is now mid-back again.) And because I have a reputation as being an excellent teacher nobody gives me any grief` about my hair.
I tell you this because you need to ask yourself two fundamental questions about your job search. FIrst, how badly do you want that job? (Is it going to help you in your career or help you achieve your goals, whatever they are.)
Seondly, if it is your ideal job, do you really want to work for a company that values your short hair length over your aility to do the job well. While I cannot generalize for others, it has been my experience (especially when I worked in the accounting field) that if a company puts restrictions on the way an employee's appearance should be (and the employee is unhappy about that), chances are the employee is not going to be happy with many of the other company's rules and regulations as well.
It depends on what you're willing to put up with--only you can answer that. It's definitely unfair that well-groomed men have to cut their long hair to land a job, but many times that's the way it is. But there are jobs out there that employ longhaired men--you just have to really look and research what the company's policies are. Hopefully, you will find a job where you can keep your long hair; but in the meantime, it may come down to what is more important to you--your long hair or getting that first job.
Good luck to you; I know it may be of small comfort to you now, but be aware that many other longhaired guys were in the same predicament as you. They got through this dilemma (which in a fair world, hairlength on men would be a non-issue), and I know you will, too.
Dave wrote:-
1981 !!! It went back into the 60's when men first started growing their hair long since the end of world war II.
Yes its unfair.
The interesting thing about long haired men is that they generally are good workers, though they are not normally noticed by society.
Like you, I consider myself a good worker too and I think I've made myself in demand, among the corporate community here.
However my role is not to be a public relations mouthpiece for the corporate sector and I try and avoid being that.
BTW. The computer industry in Silicon Valley tend to be very liberal about long hair on men, even those who are seen in the public light.
Former Sun Microsystems Java Evangelist, Miko Matsumara had very long hair while he trotted around the world selling the benefits of Java.
He subsequently left Sun to join BizTone.com which develops Web-based enterprise resporce planning systems and he had a haircut which made him look like an aboslute geek.
I asked Miko why, and he said that he just wanted a change.
Not satisfied with his answer I asked his boss Darryl Carlton, who started BizTone.com in Malaysia whether he told Miko to cut his hair and Darryl vehemently denied it and I tend to believe him.
These arty-farty longhairs don't seem to have the committment to longhair.
In my first 12 years of working life, I cut mu=y hair and did not grow it long. However, in my two years in Canada, I grew it out and when I returned to Malaysia, I told myself that would not cut my hair for a job.
My first job interview was as a stringer with our competitor paper, The New Straits Times and they told me to get my hair cut and I politely told them no and got up and left the interview room.
I was then interviewed by The Star where I now work and they accepted me a a full time reporter with my long hair and we at The Star consider ourselves better than the New Straits Times and even during these recessionary times, we have been able to increase our circulation and make a profit (albeit smaller), while the other papers are losing money and laying off staff.
Within less than 25 years, The Star grew from a small English language daily based in Penang to overtake the 150 year old New Straits Times to become Malaysia's leading English language daily.
Well that says a lot for a paper which hires longhairs.
Cheers
Charles
Hi,
I am a deaf person who wears twoi hearing aids. I cannot believe that society is so intent on men wearing their hair short. I want to use my hair to hide my hearing aids and people still won't try to understand that I want to hide my aids. Even my mother is that way. Where is the compassion? I just want to grow my hair down below my ears in a bob-like style. Even my hearing aid dealer suggested that I try longer hair to protect my aids from temperature differences that cause condensation in my aids. I just don't understand the intensity of society in wanting men to wear their hair short.
it is in my opinion a matter of expecting others to conform to a 'norm'. people will go to great lengths (excuse the pun) to justify their narrow-mindedness. do a keyword search on long hair & see how religious zealots interperet the bible as defining long hair on men (and short hair on women) as evil.
the fact is, that if someone doesn't like long hair on guys they will not accept it to hide hearing aids- or anything else. they will use anything to rationalize their narrow point of view. such ignorance is quite frustrating when it is used as a basis denying employment or other form of discrimination. my advice to you is to wear your hair any way you like and don't let others' opinions get to you.
But don't forget that women, non-WASP ethnic minorities and the disabled were also perceived as undesirables, which is why discrimination laws were enacted. That may be the argument for extending protection to qualities such as personal appearance.
However, the dilemma presented by long hair on men is that it's almost always a personal fashion choice (and one that changes with the times) and purely a superficial attribute, unlike genuinely fundamental, unalterable qualities like gender, race, age, national origin and physical ability.
Of course things start to blur when it comes to marital status and religion — some would say those are matters of fashion, too. Then there are arguably fundamental qualities like sexual orientation, which usually doesn't receive protection under the law.
very true, but a disproportionate number of long haired men tend to behave badly, thus earning the reputation. if you choose to grow your hair out, you also choose (by default) to inherit some prejudice. the only possible chance you have to change the perception is simply to live it down- demonstrate through your conduct that you are not a druggie, thief, loser, or whatever.
Why is this so??
I've spent two years in Canada during which time I made plenty of nice long haired friends and yes they smoke pot a lot, took some mushrooms or dropped a tab of acid once in a while, but nothing more, apart from getting drunk.
Yes, I also observed a lot of long hairs on the street and they were the rough types anyway, who would be so whether they had long hair or not.
Perhaps it is they who are visible minority (of longhairs) who give a general bad impression about long haired men.
Again perhaps, I think it is because of the discrimination against long haired men in the workplace, those who still have the freedom to have long hair are either in manual jobs, menial jobs, are self employed, or of independent means, are on welfare or are thieves.
Cheers
Charles
The "visible minority" of ANY group gives that whole group a bad name. If society has yet to learn this lesson with respect to a person's ethnic or religious heritage, don't hold your breath waiting for acceptance of your long hair. The problem for "us" is that long hair on bad guys is more closely associated with their anti-social behavior than short hair is on short-haired bad guys. Go figua.
I'm lucky. My company permits long hair on men as long as it's kept neat and clean (the same rule applies to short hair, obviously). I went to a company seminar last week and was pleased to see a couple of other pony-tailed guys I hadn't previously met. The moderator of the seminar was an outside consultant, mid-30's, who also had a long ponytail. The seminar topic? DIVERSITY TRAINING!
America! What a Country!
This has been a good discussion. It's nice to see some civility return to a forum like this.
John makes a quite valid point on people's perceptions. That's why I waited until making a career choice and establishing my reputation first, shorthaired, before deciding to grow it out. Now, as it's in "that phase," acquaintances and co-workers find the change and transition to be interesting, as it reveals another facet of my personality. It makes the experience quite interesting and quite fun. I've actually had some people encourage me to try a beard, so I'm doing that this summer. Then again, I'm quite lucky myself to be working in a very diverse and more socially "liberal" atmosphere.
Adam wrote:-
Hmm! Yes it has.
I ended up doing as you did but not as a matter of choice.
Firstly, when I got back from my studies in Britain, I was forced by my mum to keep my hair short. Its that middle-class thing of "what will other people say."
Both my parents were very conservative, my father was in the police and my mother was a doctor and both worked for the government, so it was very much an image thing. To make matters worse, I was their only child.
In fact, that was why I was so keen to stay on in Britain which had a freer social and cultural environment than Malaysia at the time but unfortunately I could not get a work permit.
Well, in my university days, it was a sort of challenge to not cut ones hair to get a job and if anybody did, it was considered a sell-out.
However, in the 1970's, the level of tolerance of longhairs in the workplace in Britain varied. For example my friend Paul was a longhair who worked with Mullard, a company owned by Philips and he was sent to the university to do a degree by Mullard and they did not bother about his hair.
However he did not have to deal with the public. I've also seen a number of longhairs working on the production floor at Boeing and Hughes in the United States, GEC Telecommunications in Britain.
In March, I visted British Telecommunications BT Laboratories in Britain and saw some really super-longhairs which goes to show that smart and brainy guys have long hair. BT Labs is considered to be the largest telecommunications research facility in Europe.
Furthermore, in the early 1980's I was interviewed by a longhaired manager of testing at Harris Semconductor in Malaysia. Didn't get the job though. Perhaps he would have hired me if I had long hair, though I'll never know.
However, it was only when I went to Canada in 1992 did I grow my hair again and even though its not the super long, glowing, flowing hair that I'd idealy like to have, I like it anyway.
Cheers
Charles
Charles you are proving the point. Pot and acid are illegal in Canada (and the U.S.) Your long-haired friends are criminals. Druggies. Drunks. Precisely the type of person that I do not want working for me.
And, yes, I can and do discriminate against many long haired men because they choose to look that way. It is legal in the states because long haired men are not a "protected class" defined by my state's code...which is where you will find most of the labor laws. Some of you may want to complain that you would not want to work for me, either. I have no problem with that at all.
please bear in mind sir, that many of us longhairs are NOT criminals, drunks, or druggies. as for me- i fully recognize that a disproportionate number are... also that i'm likely to be thought of as such because i choose to grow my hair out. i hold 2 jobs and BOTH employers have found that i am a hard worker; i take initiative, stay busy, work well with others. i show up for work promptly and sober. personally, i average a beer or two a week. i have neither the time nor inclination to get drunk or high. does your prejudice bother me? somewhat- but i understand where you are coming from. my place is not to rail against your discrimination, but to demonstrate through my own behavior that you're not necessarily correct. would i cut my hair to work for you? no. i'm not going to pander to your narrow opinion of what a guy's hairstyle 'should be'. i'll work for your competitor; very secure in the FACT that you passed up on the chance to hire one of the most productive workers you've ever seen... just because he wears his hair long.
Dear John and others,
Its rather strange that most responses to Tom's post agree that those friends I hung out "losers" or "undesireable types" of some sort.
I had two beers earlier today, does that make me a "drunk" and likewise, does smoking some pot make one a "druggie" I mean does that make them a drug addict.
True, "pot" or cannabis is illegal in almost all countries in the world but so is parking in a no-parking zone.
There is a great amount of evidence that it is not as harmful, nor does it lead to bad behaviour unlike legal drugs like alcohol do, and I know that from my own experience.
Furthermore, there is also ample evidence that pot is very much less harmful than cigarettes. So are they doing such a bad thing by smoking pot.
I also wonder whether anyone here can honestly say that they never tried pot or some other illegal drug in their life. Well I did try pot but refused everything else.
Perhaps by taking pot recreationally and sharing a sixpack, me and my friends were fullfilling a prejudice of society about longhairs and Tom certainly won't hire any of us if he knew.
But I ask Tom: Would you refuse to hire a longhair, based upon the suspicion that he is a druggie or drunk based purely on his long hair?
On the other hand, lets talk about other illegal things which "respectible" people do such as fiddling their tax returns, pilfering the company's property (including taking a pencil home) and worse things like cheating people, changing parts in cars which are perfectly OK, exagerating their claims, taking a friend out for the evening and charging it to the company account.
I know of a company here where the staff take their colleagues for lunch and charge it as an "entertainment expense," and the people doing these things are "nice," "respectible," shorthaired people in suits and ties.
All that technically is fraud under the law and the person can be prosecuted if the company lodges a police report, though most companies won't, since the publicity will be bad for them.
You may not believe me but I can honestly say that I don't do those crimes. I'm not trying to say that longhairs are all angles, no they are not, but how do people like Tom know whether some smartly dressed, short haired person he hires may not be inclined to do the above?
I would sooner trust a longhair than a shorthaired man in a business suit.
And that folks, is what is so hypocritical about the discrimination and prejudice shown towards longhaired men by employers and society at large.
Regards
Charles
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I say:
Oh, boy! Here I go again reposting that article from FidoNet. Doesn't anyone ever read my stuff? Or will we ALWAYS have those who espouse discrimination and prejudice?
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I say:
Oh, boy! Here I go again reposting that article from FidoNet. Doesn't anyone ever read my stuff? Or will we ALWAYS have those who espouse discrimination and prejudice? (I had to get rid of the angle brackets so that the HyperBoard won't think it's HTML!)
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The FidoNet article by Jack:
Twenty or thirty years ago, it was legal to discriminate against someone because of the color of their skin, or their religious preference, or their gender. These were made illegal, with the idea being that if the person was capable of doing the job, things that were simply discriminatory and did not affect their performance on the job should not be considered. Of course, some employers still discriminate, law or no law. It is the same MENTALITY that causes employers to reject employees that won't wear neckties... never mind whether you are capable of doing the job or not, "if you don't look/act/think as I do, you're not going to work here." There IS discrimination against people who hate neckties so much that they won't wear them under any circumstances. I don't really expect that to change too much because there are so few of us (we don't have any political clout, you know!) but if you stop and think about it on a level beyond the superficial, it really is a silly reason to not hire an otherwise good employee. Some progressive firms have realized this and don't seem to be suffering any, but it may be many years before the non-functional necktie becomes a thing of the past (and when it does, it will probably be for some really stupid reason, such as having been replaced with some fashion even more ridiculous).
By the way, I might add (to expand this beyond just the narrow idea of wearing neckties, which is where we seem to get bogged down) that employers discriminate against potential employees for MANY reasons that are not protected by law, but have nothing to do with one's ability to do the job. How you dress is one such item, but others might include your political leanings and affiliations, your opinions on various issues, the fact that you don't drink or smoke (if the employer does), your accent or other speech patterns, and all sorts of other things that (in the majority of cases) have nothing to do with how well you'd perform on the job, and that can even vary from employer to employer. The problem is that society seems to say that it is illegal to discriminate against a potential employee if that person falls into certain legally-defined classes of persons, but it's perfectly okay to discriminate against anyone else who's "different" but not in such a way as to be in one of the LEGALLY protected classes. It is this sort of institutionalized schizophrenia that gives some of us a real problem in our thinking... in other words, if discrimination based on non-job-related factors (or just being mildly "different") is illegal in some cases, it ought to be illegal in all cases. But as I say, employers routinely ignore anti-discrimination laws anyway, so I don't really expect to see a lot of progress in the areas that are NOT legally "protected" until employers start to realize that being slightly different isn't always necessarily bad, particularly when really trivial matters (but those that mean a lot to the employee) are involved. I am NOT holding my breath waiting for this to happen!
[by Jack]
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first, the quoted post makes alot of sense.
the problem, as i see it, is that you are preaching to deaf ears. employers such as 'tom' will only practice non-discrimination as far as the law compels them. your quarrel is with the legislation that does not make provisions for this kind of discrimination... as well as with longhairs such as charles' friends whose behavior justifies such anti-longhair discrimination. as long as hair length remains a 'red flag' for possible behavior problems such as illicit drug use and alcohol abuse, personnel departments will be well within their rights to eliminate prospective male employees on the basis of hair length. remember the current anti-drug political climate.
the only way to change the laws is to convince elected lawmakers that long haired men are a large enough voting block to threaten the next election. reality check- we aren't. alot of us don't even vote. the only other course of action, as i have said before, is simply to live down a bad rap... to work our way up through a company enough to positively influence people's perceptions and make such discrimination a non-issue. telling someone how wrong he or she is (however true that may be) will most certainly not open his or her mind to your point of view.
Gee, Charles, that's odd. . . I've known a lot of substance abusers in my professional life; also people with petty crimes in their past. A few wife-beaters thrown in for good measure. Not one of them had long hair.
There are saints and sinners in any subgroup you care to delineate. Let's not paint with too broad a brush.
Tom,
I can respect your views and I'm not here to discourage them. My problem is the fact that people do focus too much on dress, looks and name droppings and don't bother to see if these people can do the job. I work in two fields currently, I work in the corporate world and I do real estate. The amount of incompetence I find by most of these "clean cut" people is inexcusable. I have been trying for three weeks to get a six month report from Sprint PCS just showing I paid my bills on time and they knuckleheads are generating copies of each bill and sending it to me. Not helpful at all. When I call to complain I get this snotty guy telling me these things take time. I said all I wanted was an account activity report not friggin' copies of the bills (which they are sending me individually in separate posts) so after 3 weeks I have two bills, May and April. I also am a word processor for a law firm and I cannot tell you the thousands of dollars my firm has spent on computer training for the secretaries in our offices having at least four intensive classes as well as private one on one training because they say they couldn't understand the classes (all very presentable and clean cut ladies) and I swear, after all that, if they know how to turn off the underline button in a document.
I'm pretty unique and I don't fit in with the norm, but I know I'm damn good at what I do and if people did have a problem with the way I look, they shut their mouths very quickly. I told two employers they could fire me if they wanted and they didn't because there was no one in the office that knew the computers as well as I did. One tried to one up me and had me train a new recruit and after she worked him out of a couple thousand dollars worth of computer classes (which he didn't extend to me) she bailed on him and took a higher paying job.
Not all long hairs are drug addicts. I live in Orange County, California and most of the deadbeats down here are extremely clean cut or wear short hair and most of the long hairs I know down here have pretty darn good jobs making well over $60,000 a year, so go figure.
I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest here because I have a variety of friends with a variety length of hair, but think twice before you kick the long hair to the curb. He may well be your best employee.
Chaeya
Wearing pants is purely a personal fashion choice for women, but one of the first things that feminists attacked back in the sixties were work-place rules that didn't allow women to wear pants.
And in San Diego, California of all places.
Why not organise a campaign to have discrimination on the basis of long hair (or short) a human rights violation. I think it is so in Canada, even though employers somehow try and get around i.t
Perhaps that is true, and in Malaysia, I've noticed that while long haired men are not in the main, druggies or thieves(those guys usually shorthaired), the discrimination against long haired men in workplaces, especially in service industries and office envoronments has skewed the population of longhairs to work involving manual labour, self-employment, despatch clerks, artists and musicians.
Off hand John, I say DON'T CUT YOUR HAIR! But that is easy to say, considering that I was employed as a journalist with long hair and still have long hair which I tie in a pony tail.
My section which writes about computers and information technology now has three long hairs (including myself, one new recruit and one (I believe) whose new wife has pressured him to grow his hair long).
Outside our section, our sports editor has a mullet, one is our fashion writer and one is in a weekly TV schedule magazine and he has the longest hair of us all.
Yes, what kind of work are you looking for? Perhaps a career change will help.
Cheers
Charles
Hello,
Actually, I have a string of jobs behind me (all with good references). I was forced to leave my last job on the basis of harrassment (them harrassing me), but that's another topic. Since then I have been looking for an entry-level (or ELM) position in customer service.
The job I WANT does allow (and encourage) long hair (The San Diego Zoological Society), unfortunately the job I NEED, usually frowns upon my long hair (despite the ponytail and nice suit I wear). At this point I just wish I knew someone who works in an office building that needs a reliable secretary or receptionist.
-Beau
my mistake... your post led me to believe that you were encountering the discrimination for the first time...
customer service positions can be tough to land if you're a longhair. such an employee is high visibility and a company is more likely to want him (or her) groomed in the corporate image- jacket & tie; short hair. i assume customer service means direct person to person contact and not over the phone.
what are you giving as a reason for leaving your previous job? if you say harassment, that could be a red flag for a personnel manager. you can be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a troublemaker. you might be well advised to hone your interview skills as well as re-wording your résumé- (i say this without the benefit of witnessing you in an interview or reading your résumé).
finally, do you really need a job that won't take you as you are? how happy are you going to be waking up every day and seeing their corporate image in your bathroom mirror? you should consider a career change from what you 'need' to what you 'want'.
i am on the east coast and the only 'hair discrimination' i encountered was with my lower paying jobs. for a time, i toed the company line & sheared my mane in hopes of a promotion & raise only to realize after a time that i was being fed a line- that management was more interested with my nice conservative appearance than with my work (the full-time position that was 'just around the corner' never materialized). at that point, i stopped cutting my hair and started looking for other work.
i am currently employed with 2 jobs (choice, not necessity) and catch no flak about my past mid-back hair which i keep tied back.
Dress codes have always bothered me...at one job in an attempt to make dress codes gender neutral, all staff were allowed to wear a short dresses or skirts but not short pants.. if dress codes are to be faught it must be for gender neutrality where all staff are created equal, and hairstyles are treated equally... try to find out where the code descriminates against a female and ask to have the code made gender neutral..its the only way I have found to fight
*even went sockless for a year to protest a dress code that neglected to say you had to wear socks or footwear of any kind!*
Martin wrote:-
One of my friends once told me that since the school's dress code required us to wear a jacket and tie when in the dining room (er Sir, I mean "refectory"), we should therefore do exactly that. Get it??
Charles
Having read through this whole thread, I was surprised that no one mentioned the one fool-proof solution: Make sure you have current job skills in a high-demand field. I live in San Diego, too, and I will tell you right now that while "neat and clean" are still very important, a talented software coder (C++ and its derivatives) with just a modest amount of networking knowledge can pretty much wear whatever styles of hair or clothing that he or she likes. Hell, for some whiz kids I've known, the clue that they would be meeting the company president that day was that they came to work with shoes.
The good news is that the whole company gets used to the more casual attitude, and the benefits trickle down to those of us who aren't rocket scientists. Maybe ten years ago a long-haired male secretary would have been a hot topic at a San Diego business, but not today -- at least not at places like QualComm or its myriad competitors. But whether you're looking in San Diego or Sandusky, it would be foolish not to realize that appearance does count. If your look is calculated to frighten or intimidate, or if you exude offensive odors, you'll probably find the corporate ladder a bit hard to get ahold of.
By the same token, if your job requires that you meet customers or otherwise appear in public as a representative of your company, you can expect your employer to mandate that both sexes wear the uniform ("business attire") whether there's a written dress code or not.
On the other hand, I have to say that it's been at least 20 years since I've encountered the kind of prejudice and suspicion of long-hairs *per se* that a number of other posts in this thread have cited. Good luck.
. . . jim strain in san diego