new thread
Look gentlemen, I really must say that your continued flaming of Thee Longhaired Gal is uncalled for. You will by now have realised that most men on this board do not support your attitude.
I, for one, do not share your fears that this board will be "overun by women". I just can't see that happening.
The point is that TLG regularly posts great advice to our hair questions and problems - better advice than most. Don't you agree it is helpful and worthwhile to hear a woman's point of view on issues which males have with their hair?
Lastly, all of you do not seem to have any problem whatsoever with the large number of "Off Topic" posts about music, bands, idols, video games, personal grudges, religious posts and what-have-you. I must then ask you, how does this relate to men's long hair???
I suggest that we be supportive of a person who has been more than supportive of us. After all, many on this board have benefited from TLG's advice, right?
Huey
'Longhaired Paul' needs to start his own message board with passwords and sign-in screens. Then he can say/do/ban anybody/anything he wants. And with his on-going theme of the topics keeping in line with the board name, he could call it 'The Insecure Longhaired Dictatorship Hyperboard'.
Ouch!
Not agreeing or disagreeing. Just... Ouch! :)
alt.lifestyle.barefoot posts containing word 'lucas'
Lots of people were unhappy with his moderation there, as I recall.
Moderation of a message board is an art. It takes us about six months to train a moderator. It also takes a group. Even after years of moderating, situations will arise where one needs the input of others who are trained in this art.
Bill
That is a Usenet newgroup, not a message board. So you're wrong about that.
First off, I would like to state that I'm just a random lurker (male) who gets some kicks out of reading the forum. While in the process of growing my hair out, I do not desire any commentary/suggestions from others on it. Theory being it will grow how it's supposed to, and once it's "done", I'm open for compliments. ;-)
I've not read any of the recent posts on the issue, but I did catch some of the first ones. With that in mind, here's my perspective.
In the few months that I've been lurking, I've seen a number of new female members. While not nearly as high as the new male members, it is happening, slowly but surely.
Helpful, yes; but alas, this is still a forum meant for men. I have no problems with comments/suggestions; they often have an insight most of us lack. The progress pics do bother me a bit, however!
Sadly, most don't seem to care; that, or they believe it's somehow related if they mention "That guy on TV was a longhair!!" in their post. I think it's best if we stick to ourselves, and not others.
Being supportive is fine and I'm all for it, but this is hardly the place for female progress pictures (IMO). If she wants to update us on her progress, a link to a female-centric forum post may be the best means of doing so.
While I'm at it, I'll take a crack at some of my other issues with the forum.
To all of the MEN posting progress pictures:
PLEASE, PLEASE, *PLEASE* PUT ON A SHIRT!
I don't care how sexy your chest hair is, and would rather not find out. If it's not too much trouble-- rather, if you can fit a shirt over your head and not have hair coming out the bottom, PLEASE PUT ON A SHIRT!
Next up, the "keep it long" attitude. This one really gets to me. I know, I know, we all like long hair. We all want to encourage others because we, ourselves, like it. But when some among us express that they want to, or have to, cut their hair, "KEEP IT LONG!!" is not encouragement. We should encourage them by the likes of "Try longhair again sometime!"; something that respects their wishes and/or situation, while subtly encouraging them towards future growth.
Lastly, to Gollan. I really think you should consider redoing the pictures on your bandana tying instructions. You look a bit red, and it's probably not the best to encourage others to use bandanas when you look embarassed with it yourself! :)
Disclaimer: No offense was meant by this post. That's just my take, and you can redeem it for it's .02$ USD net worth at your nearest financial institution.
"PLEASE, PLEASE, *PLEASE* PUT ON A SHIRT!"
I just have to ask: Do you run up to random men at the beach and yell this to them? LOL
Here's an Idea guy, if you don't want to see a guys chest in a pic or in person...
*insert drum roll here*....
DON'T LOOK AT IT! Tada!
*snicker
1. Fear of women here? why?
2. yes.
3. Why do progress pix bother you? I see it as something
to look forward to or as an example what I may look like at
xx months.
4. Off topic posts are just that. Off topic. Makes for some
interesting conversation/points of view. I prefer to not get
into religious discussions because it leads to personal
grudges. This is America. Speak whatever language you speak
and if I want to talk to you I will try to speak that language
not say "this is America speak English". That's stupid.
Pray to whatever God pleases you. I don't care. Not worth
fighting over which is the correct one to pray to. Maybe you
are right. Maybe I'm right. Maybe we are both wrong. Who
knows...really.
Nothing wrong with that. I believe I am the same way.
Why do the progress pics bother you? IMNSHO I have no problem with female help and the occassional progress pics.
I think the majority of replies I've seen to the "I want to cut it" posts are either neutrally supportive or are the "Give it a week and then decide" type.
Hi Guys,
I'm another random lurker. I read the board daily but don't post, though I really appreciate reading about the experiences of other guys who are growing their hair. Perhaps this is not a good time for me to begin posting, but I do have some opinions I'd like to share:
Agreed, flaming is not a good thing, but I don't really think Thee Longhaired Gal is being flamed. I think she may percieve it as such, but really what I think is happening is that there are some men on the board who don't really appreciate her input here, and their being forward about that and sharing their opinion isn't flaming in my opinion.
Maybe it won't be, who knows, but the reality is for generations hair care has been catered to women. If a woman wants to grow her hair she has tons of information and support. Men on the other hand face different obsticles. Society still gives men a difficult time about growing long hair. This board was designed for men. In my opinion Thee Longhaired Gal needs to move along. She does not face our obsticles in growing, and does not belong here.
I have not found any of her posts to be very informative, though I agree she does post often.
I've been growing now for a year, and have not benefited from any thing she has had to say
Greg
As near as I can see, having looked at previous TLG-flaming threads, there is only one flamer, who posts under multiple aliases, and there is at least one "supporter", who also posts under multiple aliases, although these may in fact all be the same person.
I don't think one active troll constitutes a "flame".
But the flurry of responses can make it appear this way.
I say, let's just ignore the TLG-troll from now on.
I never flamed her. Sorry you can't understand that.
You bend the rules probably only because you find her pretty.
I never said any such thing.
And those posts are perfectly OK.
Those are "obviously" off-topic and not even worth commentary. The posters should be ignored and never responded to in the hopes they'll get bored and go away.
Again, it has nothing to do with HER.
Er...Whilst these comments weren't directed at me I feel the need to reply to your comments
You hound her everytime she talks about her hair... which you perceive as "Off-topic" yet you never commented when RedLeader posted pics of his girlfriends haircut, nor on any of the other "off-topic" posts. This indicates you are singling her out for crticism, so I think you are on her case. YOU ARE FLAMING HER!
That is something only a paranoid woman hater would say Paul. Its also bang out of order and gross assumption.
Sorted
Technically LHP is right about this, it IS in the text of the board. And he is correct in stating that he did not flame or insult her in any way. Anyone claiming that he did should apologize to him. Stating a technical point in response to a post is not a flame or an insult, even if the poster keeps it up.
I see far to many people here with skin that is much too thin and when they are new people it just compounds it. They should spend a good amount of time around here first before complaining about the attitudes of guys on the board and trying to change it to suit them. Even you, Sorted, haven't been here all that long as many of the guys have been (not putting you down so don't take it that way).
What is the purpose of a subject specific board anyway? Anyone know? Why bother?
Well, probably because there are people who are intrested in the particular subject of the board and maybe not other subjects. At least if they are intrested in other subjects they know that there are other specific subject boards that they can go to where they can count on the subject being discussed......well, hopefully, as long as it hasn't become polluted with off topic posts and made irrelevant.
I've been online since 1994 and have seen chat rooms, message boards, forums, newsgroups, etc. of all sorts. There is a process and often a lifespan to them. The biggest detriment to these forms of communication is the tendency of the users to stray from the topic often enough to affect a permenant change in the membership. People not bothering to participate anymore because it doesn't server their intrests in the topic anymore or new people coming to the board and finding that it is a joke since it doesn't appear to ever talk about the topic of the board.
This board is not at this point yet or even near, but it has become rather messy over the past 8 months or so as new folks come in and start firing away like they do on other boards.
The issue of women posting pictures of themselves on a regular basis is one that does need some consideration. There are a number of women who now contribute regularly or read and don't contribute (or only occasionally). I'm sure that many of them wouldn't mind posting pics. So, what if we get a dozen women posting pics here? What if they keep telling their friends on other boards that this is a fun place to hang out and post about women's hair? Do you think that this could have an effect on this boards ability to stay on topic? Have you seen how many replies to the female pictures have been posted? Multiply that by a dozen and see how much room is left for men's hair discussion.
I know, we all want to be nice to people and let them do whatever they want but it's not being "mean" to say that we know where this leads and it would be smart to stick to the plan. No one should have to defend themselves as not being a "woman hater" or a "Nazi" just because they want to see this board stay on topic. Some people will reply that if you take out all the O.T. posts then there will be very little to talk about. Well, the idea of the board is not to see how much space you can fill up in the shortest amount of time. Some seem to think so or maybe just don't have anything else to do (kind of strange when you are connected to the world via the internet though).
I have a seat on a condominium complex's board and what we find is that when the by-laws are not adhered to then things get ugly. There is a reason that the rules were set up in the first place...if there were no reasons then the rules wouldn't be there. When it comes to homes people have serious vested intrest in matters.
Maybe what is allowing people to poo-poo the guidelines of this board is the fact that they DON'T have to subscribe or have a real vested intrest (especially if they aren't men with long hair) and can just post as they please in an annoymous manner. Your stake in something is very little if you only have a casual intrest. Sure, that's fine, not everything needs to be so serious. But this is a unique place on the internet which is why people come here from all over the world to talk about men's longhair subjects and issues.
I for one would hate to see this board end up in a slow slide to becoming irrelevant. How about you?
(didn't Redleader's pic of his girlfriend also include a pic of himself next to her?)
Hmm... I disagree, its not Paul's place to tell other members what is right or wrong on this board. He is not a Moderator nor the owner of the web site. If he has a complaint about the content of a post he should contact the webmaster and the moderators using the link at the top of the page entittled "Webmaster/Complaints".
Paul's history suggests a vigilante approach to chasing people who he percieves to be Law Breakers. But we don't like vigilantes on our streets and we don't like them on our message boards... that's why we have moderators. Again if you don't feel they are doing their job then complain throught the proper channels.
I've been here 16 Months its long enough to know the board well enough and the characters that inhabit the place. But I don't see the relevance of that comment. If your courteous to people then there's no need to worry about the thickness of anyone's skin.
I dissagree again, the biggest reason for the detriment of those forms of communication is the fact that people are rude to each other, newbies are hounded and the sense of community evapourates. Further to that, over zealous moderation and power triping over minor irrelevant things like minor deviations from topic, tend to make people feel boxed in and unable to express themselves, then the place turns stagnent and dull... too contained.
I think this is a testement to the change in attitude of the web user who has ceased to be that Geeky Guy in 1994 who checked 20 newsgroups a day and found himself power tripping because suddenly he could get social status in the world by being "a regular" something that had eluded him in his otherwise stale existence. Nowadays the web user is the average person of the street. Someone who's interested in a topic, but also want a place to hang out away from the pressures of their real life. These people want to relax, and chill out not be hammered with rules and regulations.
Sure you have to protect the theme of board and ensure their isn't a massive deviation but just because their is one Woman who posts progress pics here, it doesn't mean the flood gates are about to open and no-one is watching... this is not the begining of the end... the people in charge are watching...
No one should be accused of having their opinion biased towards women posting here because they are straight either, but that didn't stop Paul.
I think your overly concerned... I'm more concerned about Paul attitude towards singling out TLG when he never complains about other off-topic threads. You are guilty of inconsistency also as you will hapily participate in discussions about Religion, but you still complain about people going off-topic.
I don't blame you for doing so because its something you clearly feel strongly about, but you do have double standards when it comes to Off-topic threads that interest you and those that don't interest you.
And Readleader's Thread was about his girlfriends hair... Are you now saying it would be OK for Thee LongHaired Gal to post progress pics if her brother stands next to her in the photo?
BTW: Please don't reply here... I don't think the rest of the boards really wants us to occupy more space by debating this issue. If you really want to talk about this please email me: david(at)sortedsites.com
Sorted
I predicted that someone would make an remark like that. The problem with using that to back up your opinion that I should just drop this without presenting my opinion it is that in those O.T. threads that I participated in, you WILL notice that I did NOT start ANY of them. Since it was clear that the mods thought they were fine then OF COURSE it's fine for me to post to them as well. And the reason I post to those, if you notice, is that I see someone spreading incorrect information about a subject (dosen't matter what since it was off- topic and allowed by the mods) or have better information to add to the subject as long as it's there anyway. As for not replying to certain subjects that is unbelieveably irrelevant.
This ain't no double-standard.
Dont you see you just proved my point?
I'm not saying you shouldn't post in those threads, what I saying is you don't criticise people who start Off-Topic threads that you WANT to participate in. (That's the double standard.)
But as far as I'm concerned you're quite welcome to participate in these off-topic threads because as you've said, the Moderators have allowed them, so your more than entittled to post too....
...Equally the moderators have allowed Thee Longhaired Gal's thread to stand!
So my suggestion to you and Paul, is that you let the moderators decide what should stand and what should be banned and that if you have a problem with their decisions you take it to the appropriate authority and not complain about it on the board.
Sorted
Actually I have criticised the posting of off-topic threads that I have participated in. Didn't you notice? I get so sick of them sometimes that I have to participate...I just don't start them.
And I do "allow" the mods to determine what is appropriate, but members voicing their opinion is no keeping the mods from doing that as this is currently what they are doing anyway.
Not sure why you are pairing me with Paul now ("you and Paul"), does that include the other guys too?
Your [comment | question] is off-topic here. You might want to try [other_forum].
And leave it at that. Anything else falls under the category of participation and actually contributes to the "culture of off-topic posters". And yes, I realize that by posting this message I'm contributing to the culture of OT posters too, but I'm a professed OT-posting "liberal" so I can get away with it. :)
Hair Religion, I am really sorry to see you take this position. Ironically, it has all the characteristics of conservative religion! Appeal to rules and using those rules to keep the flock "pure"; appeal to the rules to determine who is right and who is wrong; appeal to proper initiation and membership, "true members" who have registered and joined properly; appeal to original intent, and the prophetic doom that if we don't repent now of our errant ways, then judgement day will come and our beloved paradise will slip off into damnation.
Of course, you never used these words. Look, I live in a subdivision with a covenant full of rules. The Home Owners Association "enforces" the rules of the covenant. I refer to them as the Home Nazi Association. I do so because their first appeal is to the rules and not to people's humanity. Rules as a measure for who gets to stay and who has to leave are simply division and contrary to human community. Oddly, condos or housing subdivisions think they can create a community with rules! How absurd. Shared interests, experiences and some sort of common life creates communities. Appeal to rules is about control and who has the most.
I have been on this list for four years. I don't know how long one has to be here in order to be considered a member long enough to have a valid opinion on something (maybe that's in the rules, too), but I found your concern for such with Sorted surprising. My own sense is that Sorted has been here long enough, and has been active enough, to respect what he has to say on this sensitive subject. There's not a person here who posts in a semi-regular fashion whose posts I don't look forward to. However, if we are going to get divisive over who really belongs and who does not, over who can post about their hair and who cannot, then, I shall simply leave.
That would be sad for me, but I have left other groups before for this very reason. Life is too short for this kind of pettiness.
The board's name speaks for itself. As far as I am concerned, the practice that we have maintained quite well is that people who are interested in men's longhair issues are welcome here. And the variety of our interests are myriad. That some of those who have interest in men's longhair issues are women, and that they share their photos with us is part of what makes this interesting.
So, can we start over here, and say welcome to everyone, and get back to our hair stuff?
Robert
Let's clarify things.
From my posts, tell me what is my position on this matter of women (and specifically TLG) posting their pics?
I've told you how I percieve your posts. You tell me what you've said, and/or if I have misunderstood you. I am quite willing to be corrected.
Robert
This is what I have said:
"The issue of women posting pictures of themselves on a regular basis is one that does need some consideration."
Why did I say that? Because it is an issue that brought up by someone because it seems to "possibly?" conflict with the rules as they are read (regardless of how strict or not you wish to see the board).
What did I not say? I did not say that TLG should not have posted her pics and that women who come here should not post pics or that women who come here are not welcome to post or anything else of that nature. So, if this is your impression of what I have said then you are completely wrong.
There really is no reason for you to be sorry for my view that an issue needs some consideration. Methinks that you may have jumped to some conclusions. Even the mods off the board think that it is actually correct but have a problem with how is was brought up. I don't really care if those who run the board decide that it is fine or even should be encouraged for women to post pics, that is their choice and it won't affect my participation on the board.
Remember, I never weighed in with a negative about it, just brought up issues that related to online boards (and this one).
I've got to make this my last post on this thread as I think that the mods may think that I am posting too much on this subject (if that is the case then sorry mods, I'll keep it to a minimum), just wanted to clarify what seemed to be some incorrect assumptions because I spoke the funny words.
You are right. You did not say that TLG should not have posted her pics and that women who come here should not post pics or that women who come here are not welcome to post or anything else of that nature.
I read your series of rhetorical questions as implying that, however. You said:
"The issue of women posting pictures of themselves on a regular basis is one that does need some consideration. There are a number of women who now contribute regularly or read and don't contribute (or only occasionally). I'm sure that many of them wouldn't mind posting pics. So, what if we get a dozen women posting pics here? What if they keep telling their friends on other boards that this is a fun place to hang out and post about women's hair? Do you think that this could have an effect on this boards ability to stay on topic? Have you seen how many replies to the female pictures have been posted? Multiply that by a dozen and see how much room is left for men's hair discussion."
Can you honestly not see how this series of questions, posed as they do, implies that you don't want women posting here?
Now, having asked all the questions, what is your position? I have stated mine very clearly.
The TLG referred to herself as second class citizen or her posts as off-topic, I thought she was kidding. I had missed the negative posts she was getting. And then, I was appalled. Then, I read what you posted here, and thought--wow, these guys really don't want women here.
So, I do not mean to misunderstand your position, but you've taken the time and space to state all the questions. How about clarifying your position. And if we are not going to have this discussion on the board, then, where?
Robert
So, if this is your impression of what I have said then you are completely wrong.
I interpreted the post exactly the same way as you did, Robert. It appeared previously that the flack was coming from off-board trolls, but after this post the appearance changed. Now it seems to be an issue of disingenuity.
I wouldn't dream of posting a pic on this board.
Reading the words of Hair Religion I nod in agreement rather than feel unwanted here. His words are not about the on-topic supporting participation of women but the questionable use of this board as their own source of positive feedback on their growth.
Hair Religion wrote- "The issue of women posting pictures of themselves on a regular basis is one that does need some consideration. There are a number of women who now contribute regularly or read and don't contribute (or only occasionally). I'm sure that many of them wouldn't mind posting pics. So, what if we get a dozen women posting pics here? What if they keep telling their friends on other boards that this is a fun place to hang out and post about women's hair? Do you think that this could have an effect on this boards ability to stay on topic? Have you seen how many replies to the female pictures have been posted? Multiply that by a dozen and see how much room is left for men's hair discussion."
He recognizes that there are women here with the restraint not to post their photos on a regular basis. Would many of the female regulars love to be admired by our friends here? I bet so, compliments feel great. But we don't show progress photos knowing this is not the site for them, doing so would change the fundamental character and purpose of the site. Men who want a gender neutral hair support board can find them, as have some of the hyperboard gentlemen who are also regulars elsewhere. This board however is intended to have men as the topic. I certainly feel people looking for that should continue to be able to find it here.
If it is going to now be a place where the women posters are permitted to honorarily be "one of the guys" I sure would like to be told so I can do the same thing. From the resistance I see though, to change that guideline would be the loss of what makes this board special.
Elizabeth
You don't understand the definition of "flame."
I didn't realize he had. Should I start commenting on his posts just to be fair then?
I notice that you didn't deny it.
No? You most certainly have made it clear that you would prefer her not to be here. You criticise her for posting progress pics on the sole basis that she is female. Men's and women's hair is technically identical. What is wrong with one woman posting a picture of her own hair?
You assume here that I think with my genitals. Why? Is that how it is for you and you assume that everyone else also operates at such a low level?
No, but you most certainly implied it.
If you take you also have to give.
Okay, we agree on that.
Well, your approach to TLG has come across as very personal. Something to ponder...
agreed...
i might also add that the webmaster has allowed TLG's contributions- as well as your dissent. this has taken place at HIS expense. as far as i can see, the inclusion speaks for itself; and while we all understand and appreciate your (longhaired paul's) disagreement with what has been permitted, most of us do not share the opinion.
longhaired paul... you have spoken your piece and elicited some reaction- while it may be arguable that some of TLG's posts are not in complete compliance with the strictest of interperetation of the rules- she is quite supportive of us. she has earned a place here as a respected member.
the spirit of the rules as i see it is to maintain an orderly and peaceful community atmosphere here. continually accusing a supportive regular of being in rules violation does not contribute to such an atmosphere. it's time to move on.
Um, I think people are missing the point.
This is supposed to be a forum for Men with Long Hair and support of their journey.
ANYONE that contributes to the discussions should be more than welcome! ANYONE that is part of the "Easily Offended Society" are free to leave of their own choice!
Some of the off topic questions I beleive are really people searching for what they have in common with others on becoming a long hair. Many are just looking for a group to belong too.
All of us at one point have had nasty looks or comments made to us about having or growing long hair. Some don't deal with that very well. They should be supported by this group and not chastised for being open about their feelings. Because some people are just really mean and don't care who they offend and I feel sorry for them because "They just don't know!"
Anyone who doesn't support her is just doing exactly what so many here complain about.......discriminate based on long hair and what sex you were born.
She's been very supportive of everyone here. Why not support HER a little?
If you don't want to read her posts......then don't open them! (I think my little two year old could even figure out that one ;-)
You're in the minority. The rest of us want to read all of her posts :-)
I don't think this board is likely to be o'verrun by women', but if we get some or even a lot of women who
a) like long hair on men
b) are willing to share useful ideas with us
then I can't see that we have any valid reason to ob ject.
This is after all, a
'board about men's long hair',
not a
'men's board about long hair'.
There's a difference.
And if some of our lady supporters, which include such icons as Lady Godiva, want to post occasional pictures of themselves, then where's the harm? I am always grateful for advice and support, and I'm not bothered where it comes from.
Interestingly, if you look at The Long Hair Community, it's mainly by women about women, but there is a significant if small proportion of men who post there regularly, and who are welcomed. True gender equality comes when men and women can talk openly about subjects of mutual interest without questions of gender being raised, unless relevant.
